Could you give me a few examples of that counter movement / web revival ? Websites ? Forums ? I must admit I'm out of my depth in this area. I don't know what exists... and I wouldn't even know where to look for it. Of course I know Neocities for example, since I have websites there, but looking at the super oldschool websites that young people do, and that (sometimes) would have been slightly embarassing websites "back then", I can't shake the feeling that a lot of this is purely ironic, voluntarily kitsch, and I wouldn't want any "web revival" to be ironic, precisely. I actually love kitsch but it demands a certain innocence. And I can be pretty ironic as a person but I think that this omnipresence of irony in contemporary culture is a poison. Just as if some people are ashamed to be sincere or straightforward. Fearing to look "naive" or something.
It is also, I think, a symptom of that "end of History" where we live; nothing new can happen, so just let's have fun growing ironic moustaches and making ugly Geocities-like websites with cat photos and rotating skull GIFs. At the end of the day it's not funny at all, just sad and demotivating.
BUT if there is something new and "serious" that I'm not aware of, I'd be very happy to discover it!
What he - at least I'd say so - wants to say: These "neat" things seemingly didn't work out very well in the past, if we regard the situation at hands. Why try them again? He guesses: They are tried again because people are afraid to try something new and see it not working again. Do you regard this as cynical?I don't understand at all what you're trying to argue for him. He said, “this omnipresence of irony in contemporary culture is a poison. Just as if some people are ashamed to be sincere or straightforward.” When he's calling a cultural movement of whimsical pastiche poison, I am going to assume he is a greater cynic than the average person who is using Neocities to share pictures of cute cats and cool spinning skull graphics. Yes, some people like those sorts of things, and that in no way automatically makes them despondent in the future. Maybe they don't want to use JavaScript. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXOChLn5ZdQ) And what is this implication that optimism exists only if there is some kind of newfangled technological "advance" to herald it? To me, that's like looking down on people who are getting into older crafts like bookbinding and scrapbooking because it's fun to make personal things with your own skill. Humans like to be creative, and Neocities offers an accessible digital online medium to create in. Not everyone has the know-how or desire to work with SASS or pay for a GSAP (https://gsap.com/) licence when all they want to do is small-time, hobbyist craft.
And even if people are creative: In what way are they? Does it help if anybody is doing (maybe great) art isolated in their bedchamber, while the world outside burns away? Last I checked, the US weren't seeming in an optimistic state, let alone in an atmosphere of departure in a positive way.What is the chief complaint? That swathes of people with access to an in-browser code editor are not revolutionary web developers, writers, or multidisciplinary artists who self-organise into futurist art collectives? That people don't have a natural tendency for (or are good at) agitprop, and thus can't possibly be anything but cynical when they share blinkies? I suppose it may be "frustrating" that people are exercising their waking hours the "wrong" way, but if we're going to complain about that, then perhaps it would be even more productive that (in the case of the US, in this example) we examine the material, historical reasons for that (i.e. the rise of the US as the predominant capitalist superpower post-World War II, the breakdown of the Bretton Woods agreement, etc.) and their implications for art and artistic literacy, let alone historical and social consciousness, and talk to people about it and the importance of artistic and political activity (however you define that).
“It is also, I think, a symptom of that "end of History" where we live; nothing new can happen, so just let's have fun growing ironic moustaches and making ugly Geocities-like websites with cat photos and rotating skull GIFs. At the end of the day it's not funny at all, just sad and demotivating.I sincerely believe he is looking at the wrong place if he has his scope set to encompass only, or largely Neocities. That is a platform that celebrates pastiche in its name. I'm not going to go into the Historical European Martial Arts groups and wring my hands, asking them why they're practicing montante and studying Fiore instead of innovating the light sabre. If he is looking for groups of people actively trying to disrupt the world's current fabric by using the newest in Internet technology (...Haskell and Rust???), he should go into Web3 circles and find the FOSS engineers working for pittances, shares at par value, and/or cryptocurrency. I don't mean that ironically. I mean literally. Go look for these people on X Spaces, Discord, and GitHub. He should be talking to them, reading their whitepapers, and asking them how they think their tech can and should be disruptive for social good. He will have far more optimistic, perhaps stimulating conversations about the future landscape with those full-stack engineers, than perhaps with the average person just wanting to blog about anime in their spare time. A community built on Geocities preservation and homage is probably not going to be new, or even "serious" (how do you define that? Lack of joy? Modern webdev only?), and I believe that is fine.
BUT if there is something new and "serious" that I'm not aware of, I'd be very happy to discover it!”
@dream (https://forum.melonland.net/index.php?action=profile;u=1336) I'd define counter-culture as an collective attempt to change the status quo to the better, that connects various people who act into a similar direction, by often (but not always) similar means. Examples would be the hippies, who tried to create peaceful societies by grass-roots initiatives and alternative structures (and, at least partly, drugs), the surrealists who tried to change the world through the means of the sublime, or (if you ask me) Fridays for Future/Extinction Rebellion who attempt to prevent environmental destruction with their respective means.I think this is a good definition and I find this line of questioning interesting. I think that is better decided on a case-by-case basis, as there is differentiation between the "Ugly Web" crafters (I suppose they are "punk"), and say, the Desktop Generation Collective (https://www.desktopgeneration.com/) . "Web Revival" is very broad and very much an amorphous term.
Other movements are - in their core - ironic, or desperate. Punk would be an example. It doesn't strife for any form of utopia. The question is - again: Is the web-revival rather hippie, rather punk, or (and if so, in what way) both at the same time?
I don't understand at all what you're trying to argue for him. He said, “this omnipresence of irony in contemporary culture is a poison. Just as if some people are ashamed to be sincere or straightforward.” When he's calling a cultural movement of whimsical pastiche poison, I am going to assume he is a greater cynic than the average person who is using Neocities to share pictures of cute cats and cool spinning skull graphics.
Yes, some people like those sorts of things, and that in no way automatically makes them despondent in the future.[/color] Maybe they don't want to use JavaScript. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXOChLn5ZdQ) And what is this implication that optimism exists only if there is some kind of newfangled technological "advance" to herald it? To me, that's like looking down on people who are getting into older crafts like bookbinding and scrapbooking because it's fun to make personal things with your own skill. Humans like to be creative, and Neocities offers an accessible digital online medium to create in. Not everyone has the know-how or desire to work with SASS or pay for a GSAP (https://gsap.com/) licence when all they want to do is small-time, hobbyist craft.[/font]
What is the chief complaint? That swathes of people with access to an in-browser code editor are not revolutionary web developers, writers, or multidisciplinary artists who self-organise into futurist art collectives? That people don't have a natural tendency for (or are good at) agitprop, and thus can't possibly be anything but cynical when they share blinkies? I suppose it may be "frustrating" that people are exercising their waking hours the "wrong" way, but if we're going to complain about that, then perhaps it would be even more productive that (in the case of the US, in this example) we examine the material, historical reasons for that (i.e. the rise of the US as the predominant capitalist superpower post-World War II, the breakdown of the Bretton Woods agreement, etc.) and their implications for art and artistic literacy, let alone historical and social consciousness, and talk to people about it and the importance of artistic and political activity (however you define that).
I sincerely believe he is looking at the wrong place if he has his scope set to encompass only, or largely Neocities. That is a platform that celebrates pastiche in its name. I'm not going to go into the Historical European Martial Arts groups and wring my hands, asking them why they're practicing montante and studying Fiore instead of innovating the light sabre. If he is looking for groups of people actively trying to disrupt the world's current fabric by using the newest in Internet technology (...Haskell and Rust???), he should go into Web3 circles and find the FOSS engineers working for pittances, shares at par value, and/or cryptocurrency. I don't mean that ironically. I mean literally. Go look for these people on X Spaces, Discord, and GitHub. He should be talking to them, reading their whitepapers, and asking them how they think their tech can and should be disruptive for social good. He will have far more optimistic, perhaps stimulating conversations about the future landscape with those full-stack engineers.
I think this is a good definition and I find this line of questioning interesting. I think that is better decided on a case-by-case basis, as there is differentiation between the "Ugly Web" crafters (I suppose they are "punk"), and say, the Desktop Generation Collective (https://www.desktopgeneration.com/) . "Web Revival" is very broad and very much an amorphous term.
Mario’d fallen in love with the first Madame Psychosis programs because he felt like he was listening to someone sad read out loud from yellow letters she’d taken out of a shoebox on a rainy P.M., stuff about heartbreak and people you loved dying and U.S. woe, stuff that was real. It is increasingly hard to find valid art that is about stuff that is real in this way. The older Mario gets, the more confused he gets about the fact that everyone at E.T.A. over the age of about Kent Blott finds stuff that’s really real uncomfortable and they get embarrassed. It’s like there’s some rule that real stuff can only get mentioned if everybody rolls their eyes or laughs in a way that isn’t happy.
Honestly? Yeah, this is a lot of what got me into web revival. I love glitter, I love color, I love something that's so stupidly, unabashedly loud and interesting to look at. I love learning how to make that stuff and improve my coding because... it's fun. Maybe it's shallow, but
Now, I won't discount there'll be people here on the movement who are just in for the:skull::skull::skull:and making eye-burning websites with tons of glittery GIFs, but I think even those people are taking something home more than just that. They're doing away from mindlessly scrolling, they are... crafting something with their own hands and code and abandoned GIFs. Creating instead of consuming.
Honestly? Yeah, this is a lot of what got me into web revival. I love glitter, I love color, I love something that's so stupidly, unabashedly loud and interesting to look at. I love learning how to make that stuff and improve my coding because... it's fun. Maybe it's shallow, but
I like having a space to make inane art for myself.
I also really dislike algorithmic social media and I think that was a lot of what made web revival appeal to me. I dunno, but I don't think I would ever call my own site ironic. It's exaggerated, sure- It's
an overblown, rainbow blast! But so is my wardrobe. It's just something that brings me joy, and I think that's a pretty cool part of the indie web. People make stuff that brings them joy, and then we all look at it together and go man! That's cool!
Same! I'm a very colourful person in my style as well (and 10 points to whoever can guess my favourite colour) and the colour and aesthetic was what a lot of what initially drew me into the Web revival a few years ago! I think it's a good gateway into the movement, but at the same time the style isn't mandatory or universal, and I think that's a good thing, though it is definitely an important subpart. The Web revival is all about people being able to choose how they want to present themselves on-line!
But I really don't think the Web revival is ironic or in jest. I love the aesthetics of Geocities sites (although my current design is outside of the stereotypical star-background-and-skull-GIF design) unironically - I really do like them and try to replicate them!
The biggest flaw I can find in current media (movies, books, series, games, etc.) and something that has bled into the general public's perception, is that nothing is sincere anymore. There's always a snarky comment or something that will undo the genuine moment of emotion just right about the corner. It's as if suddenly we were ashamed of being human and having human desires and emotions :trash: How am I supposed to take the story seriously if the story is afraid of taking itself seriously?*