is php worth moving off neocities for?

[dogbrain]

i've heard a lot about PHP, but since i've never had the need to use it for anything (and neocities doesn't allow it T__T), i remain unfamiliar. it seems like there are a lot of useful things you can achieve with it though, like loading the same navigation menu on every page without needing to rely on JS, among other things!  i'm curious if you guys use php on your site, and if so, what you use it for, and why you prefer it over other potential methods of achieving the same thing?

i plan on moving off neocities eventually regardless, but i'm not sure how soon that day will come until i familiarize myself with things like this xD

(i'd also appreciate any resources for learning it, if those exist!)

[Melooon]

Unless you're planing to run a multi user community site like a forum, or a very feature heavy blog. Then the answer is no. I would say 80-90% of first-timer PHP sites shutdown within the first year (people get sick of the code, then they get sick of the bills). Unless you are already hammering the outer limits of what you can do with JavaScript, and you already really feel like its holding you back, then hang onto static hosts like you're hanging onto your life, because once you are off static, then the wolves of feature creep, site costs and code maintenance are howling at your door 

[Dan Q]

My background: I love PHP, I've been writing it for 27 years, and I use it all the time.

My verdict: No, you probably don't need it for the things you're talking about.


If all you're looking to achieve with PHP is things like reusing the same HTML in a few places, "listing" content (e.g. a list of blog posts or a gallery), etc., then you'd be better-served by using a static site generator (SSG).

SSGs are easier to learn how to use, less-likely to help you shoot yourself in the foot, and they output plain HTML that you can host anywhere.

Only if you're aiming to do things that can only be done with server-side processing should you make a deliberate move in order to get PHP. E.g. if you want to accept comments from users, or you want to implement a web-based CMS, or you want an authentication system that people can sign up to, etc.

If you switch host for other reasons and happen to get PHP as a bonus, then it's probably worth learning and using for the basic purposes you're talking about! But it's not worth switching just for that.

(If you really are just looking to embed content in multiple places, did you know that Nekoweb supports SSI, which is a much simpler/more-lightweight way to do the same kind of thing!)

[sunnyp4rk]

I'm going to be the contrarian in this thread and say yes. For me, it was totally worth it. I run a lot of fanlistings and needed PHP for my scripts. I do also use very simple PHP on my main website (for header/footer + navigation). Plus you can also have your own guestbook hosted on the server instead of using atabook or similar (nothing against those, but at least I can keep the messages on my own computer as a backup).

I use leprd.space for my hosting (since its free and aimed towards primarily hobbyists), and keep an eye on the updates page if you'd want to sign up at some point, since some of the plans are closed right now. Having access to cpanel is very nice.

Alternatively, Altervista is a good free host that you can mess around with PHP on. I used to use it for my fanlistings before moving them to my current host (side note and kind of unrelated to this thread but I recommend people stop using Neocities for their fanlistings. Just use Altervista and save yourself the trouble of having to manually add all of your members if you decide to move to using a script later. I am saying this from personal experience).

[ValyceNegative]

Slightly OT but omg, Altervista still exists? I knew so many sites built on that host! The fact that it's still free blows my mind.

And now for my on-topic response, I'd say there's no harm in wanting to learn how PHP works if you are curious about it. The free hosts suggested into this thread are a good option to mess around without spending money, so I'd suggest trying it out and see for yourself if it's really useful for what you want to do with your site or not.
I use PHP to load my menu and different sections onto my main page. My site is not very interactive (no user login nor forum) but it is very big with over 20 sections, so indeed PHP saves coding time in my case.

[Dan Q]

I'm really pleased to see the counterpoints arguing against me. I  love  PHP and think it's among the best routes for indiewebbers to get to the "mildly dynamic website" dream of the early noughties.

So while my hot take (as a PHP programmer for over a quarter of a century who thinks it's a valuable tool for the indieweb) remains that it's not worth it for most people... I'm excited that it's still the right tool for some.

Incidentally, I've been half-heartedly writing a free online "cookbook" of PHP recipes for aspiring indiewebbers. If anybody here would be interested in proofreading/feeding back on what exists so far, DM me!

[coolio]

I love working in PHP. Ever since I began learning it, it's basically rekindled my love for webdev and I love that the sky is the limit and I can pretty much do whatever I want. It's allowed me to be creative in ways that simply would not be possible without a server-side language.

BUT:

Unless you're planing to run a multi user community site like a forum, or a very feature heavy blog. Then the answer is no. I would say 80-90% of first-timer PHP sites shutdown within the first year (people get sick of the code, then they get sick of the bills). Unless you are already hammering the outer limits of what you can do with JavaScript, and you already really feel like its holding you back, then hang onto static hosts like you're hanging onto your life, because once you are off static, then the wolves of feature creep, site costs and code maintenance are howling at your door 

Exactly what Melon said.

If you want to experiment and learn more with PHP, or databases, or basically anything more complicated than HTML+CSS+JS, first get Laragon or some kind of local dev environment and see if you enjoy it before jumping off a static hosting site!!

Once you start working on SSI and stuff, you also need to be more cautious and learn about proper security, because it opens you up to a whole new level of risk from malicious actors. 

[sunnyp4rk]

Coming back to this thread because (despite me singing praises for PHP) I just learned about something cool: in the Surfclub zine (because I was checking it out about 10 mins ago), there's an article about a local server program called XAMPP.

https://melonland.net/zine/issue-1/articles/local-webserver/

You could mess around and experiment with PHP locally before making any kind of jump.

[dogbrain]

wow, thank you all for the amazing feedback!! reading them all has been super helpful

i had a hunch i wouldn't /need/ to use it unless i had any particularly ambitious plans, so i'll hold off on using it on my site for now, but toying with it locally sounds like a good place to get my feet wet :o)