Struggles with Socialisation on the Indie Web

[arcus]

There have been multiple threads over the years concerning making new friends in indie web spaces:

• Leaving social media and staying connected
• Improving the ability to make friends here in the web revival - a big proposal
• how do you make friends in web revival spaces?
• Making Friends on the Web: general use vs. niche spaces
• how do you make friends on the web?
• How do I make friends online without using data-hungry social media?

While some of the posts in these threads discuss the struggles of making new friends, this is a thread focused specifically on that.

• What would you say are the most difficult aspects of meeting new people on the indie web?
• Would you say social media has had an impact on the way you interact with others online?
• Would you say personal aspects of yourself (such as age, disability, gender, beliefs,) make it harder to meet new people?
• Have you reached out to someone else on the indie web before? If not, why not?
• What would personally help you with making new friends on the indie web?

You don't have to answer all these questions, but it's still a good idea to reflect on them.

For copy pasting:

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[quote author=arcus link=topic=5709.msg55525#msg55525 date=1781797459]
What would you say are the most difficult aspects of meeting new people on the indie web?
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[quote author=arcus link=topic=5709.msg55525#msg55525 date=1781797459]
Would you say social media has had an impact on the way you interact with others online?
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[quote author=arcus link=topic=5709.msg55525#msg55525 date=1781797459]
Would you say personal aspects of yourself (such as age, disability, gender, beliefs,) make it harder to meet new people?
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[quote author=arcus link=topic=5709.msg55525#msg55525 date=1781797459]
Have you reached out to someone else on the indie web before? If not, why not?
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[quote author=arcus link=topic=5709.msg55525#msg55525 date=1781797459]
What would personally help you with making new friends on the indie web?
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[close]

[Noah_S]

Well, I've always struggled with making friends. It's disability related.

But I have another question. Did people actually make friends on social media? I don't mean people who would sometimes like their posts back and forth and maybe leave a short comment. I mean people to repeatedly have longer conversations with. To open up with about things that you weren't posting publicly. People who would be there for you during your hard times and vice versa? Or did social media train people to view acquaintances as friends?

[Kaiji]

I've always been quite socially anxious, so making new friends has been a challenge at times.
This has led me to usually lurk in most spaces, especially with how social media trains others to be judgmental and unkind.
There is some leftover unease from the hostility of the modern web which I feel may be causing me to be hesitant to reach out to others.

When you're exposed to such an environment you unconsciously adapt your own behavior. So I would not be surprised if others also struggle with this.

As for a solution to this I think by recognizing any feelings or anxieties one has regarding being open or talking about oneself (or just posting in general when it comes to lurkers) can help one work on this and take small steps to be more genuine. Even something as simple as making a post about it for others to relate to. In turn I think this will continue to foster this attitude in the indie web, and will create more comfort for everyone engaging. If people feel comfortable they will be more open, which will lead to more people feeling comfortable, etc etc.

We should try to create spaces that feel welcoming, maybe something dedicated to getting to know others like a sort of web based cafe one could "sit" inside and chat if they wish.

[Melooon]

I made a lot of good and close friends online in my teens and early 20s through my minecraft communities. They were people I stayed in contact with for years (some were close enough that we'd be texting most of the day), we were part of each others lives growing from teens, to seeing some of them getting married, getting jobs and having kids. Some of them I met in person, we traveled together, and in every respect they were true friends. Distance slowly crept in though and the fact that they lived in different countries and were living different lives meant we just didn't stay in sync at a certain point.

Initially what made those friendships work was the fact that we always had a shared project together (the minecraft server), that was a space we met daily. Plus, in a minecraft chat, its ephemeral, its not logged or archived like a forum, you can joke and say dumb things and be yourself and no one will care in a week; and that's important for making friends.

As I've gotten older (im in my early 30s now), I find that online relationships I had as a teen just don't give me what I need any more. I don't want to be on a game every day, I don't want to invest time into a friend I might never actually meet, or who might vanish the way online people do. I want my friendships now to be more direct. When I hang out with a friend, I want to actually be able to get a coffee with them, and talk in person, and have them understand where we are both at in life, and feel we have a future in each others lives.

I bring all that up, because I think a lot of people in the indie web are in their late 20s to early 30s and its worth acknowledging that what you want out of a friendship changes as you get older and the web may simply not be able to provide it.

I really enjoy interacting with people on ML for example, I enjoy offering knowledge and sharing ideas and joking with people (and sometimes debating too), but I've never really looked to make close friends here, and I don't think I could even if I wanted to.

That's fine though, if the web revival has anything to offer, its that the web is a wonderful thing, but it should not be everything, and it should not necessarily be a place for finding close friendships all of your life; it can certainly help connect people, and it can be a great shared interest and passion to have with a friend, but I think good friendships start where the web runs out 

[Memory]

I kind of feel similar to what Melon said. Like yeah as a teen, the idea of having friends over an internet connection seemed cool, but now as an adult, I want friends I can sit in a room with. Not to imply that online friends are fake, because one of my best friends ever is an online friend. There's just a limit to how much enjoyment I can get out of sitting in a discord chat before I crave something physical.

[Dynaknights]

I also have to agree. Maybe it was because I was in my tweens and early teens during the COVID pandemic, and so Discord was my only means of socializing for years, especially since my own social skills have always been dogshit and I was in a horrific mental state. I've made far more friends with close bonds on there than real life by a long shot, but I think I may have just outgrown such spaces to the point where I don't feel the same gratification I feel when I hang out at a friend's place, for example.

It kind of sucks ass though. The city I live in is somehow simultaneously tight-knit and too big for me to connect with anyone, like it was created for the sole purpose of excluding me. I've never liked the peers I've went to school with for all of my years up until university (I would go so far to say I hate them, even) and people just generally aren't that receptive of me, hence why I still try making friends online after all this time. Discord users are miserable and I don't use any other social media, so I've recently turned to the indie web for connections.
But... It's so intimidating trying to work up the balls to message someone beyond a nice message in someone's guestbook once in a blue moon. Maybe it's the slow, formal-ish conversations that webmasters may have over email or the fact I'm more used to quick back-and-forth conversations in a designated 'virtual hang out' public chatroom. I dunno. Maybe I'm too much of a pussy, but I've always preferred a place/platform people congregate in when talking to someone new. Then again, maybe I'm just outgrowing my satisfaction with the web.

[lakes]

and so Discord was my only means of socializing for years, especially since my own social skills have always been dogshit and I was in a horrific mental state. I've made far more friends with close bonds on there than real life by a long shot, but I think I may have just outgrown such spaces to the point where I don't feel the same gratification I feel when I hang out at a friend's place, for example.

I can kinda relate. I made some close friends on Discord and still like hanging out with them, but I feel kinda this discomfort being on Discord. I don't blame them for staying on there. But it feels kinda weird, given how I wanna move away from big tech, not to say I idolize the indie web or forums or FOSS. I don't. They still have problems. But I don't trust corporations much.

But... It's so intimidating trying to work up the balls to message someone beyond a nice message in someone's guestbook once in a blue moon. Maybe it's the slow, formal-ish conversations that webmasters may have over email or the fact I'm more used to quick back-and-forth conversations in a designated 'virtual hang out' public chatroom. I dunno. Maybe I'm too much of a pussy, but I've always preferred a place/platform people congregate in when talking to someone new. Then again, maybe I'm just outgrowing my satisfaction with the web.

Maybe you can try out XMPP, IRC, Matrix or one of the many lesser known instant messaging protocols and platforms. There's also Revolt/Stoat or Fluxer which I have mixed feelings about, but are alright Discord replacements. I have my XMPP & Matrix in my contact page, for example. IRC doesn't even always require an account to use & you can have multiple usernames on different servers if you wanna just dip your toes into it. IRC's meant more for chat rooms than direct messages, but can be used for both.

[MediocreMetastasis]

I also made a thread in similar vain to this as I don't consider anybody I've met online as a friend. I would need frequent back and forth between myself and that person which contradicts the general nature of forums and is pretty hard if you're in different timezones (which is with most people since I'm living in Australia).
If I make a topic or reply on this forum I only really get a response the next day as people are awake when I'm sleeping.

Little tangent. But one thing I hate about Australia is most other English speaking people are asleep when I'm awake and awake when I'm sleeping. All the action online is when I'm in bed. Streamers I wanna watch only stream when I'm in bed. It's a little annoying.

Even IRL I struggle to make friends. I cannot for the life of me ask someone I work with in uni if they want to go somewhere outside of uni.

But... It's so intimidating trying to work up the balls to message someone beyond a nice message in someone's guestbook once in a blue moon.

Same. It takes me a good minute to send a message just asking a question. I'm always worried I'll sound like an asshole or too blunt.

[chilblands]

To keep up with the theme of the replies: the internet should not be a substitute for real life. A big thing counterargument are disabled people who are unable to be present outside of the cyberspace... which I am empathetic (of course I am autistic so I understand). However, unfortunately, an online friend is incomparable to a "real life" friend. I can call my best friend when I am in trouble and they can help me right away. I can spend quality time with my friend and make real experiences. For an online "friend", they are stuck behind the screen. When we travel to meet each other, are they now still an online friend?

Any "friends" I meet online eventually fizzle out... or I get ghosted... or people loose access to whatever accounts. Of course, friendship can end and change over time, but I feel like online friendship lack substance.

Little tangent. But one thing I hate about Australia is most other English speaking people are asleep when I'm awake and awake when I'm sleeping. All the action online is when I'm in bed. Streamers I wanna watch only stream when I'm in bed. It's a little annoying.

Even IRL I struggle to make friends. I cannot for the life of me ask someone I work with in uni if they want to go somewhere outside of uni.
Same. It takes me a good minute to send a message just asking a question. I'm always worried I'll sound like an asshole or too blunt.

Oh hey, an Aussie! I think gaming communities are very close-knit and easy to make friends, especially when OCE is really small. I wouldn't know, I haven't made any gaming friends. For the uni thing, international students compared Australia's campus culture to others like USA have "dorms" (easier to make friends). Whereas students in Australia live far away and just want to go home. I personally don't want to hang out with workmates, but "hey when do you finish work? Are you hungry do you want to go this this restaurant?" works.

The big thing is, I'm autistic so I can't tell if it's me or Australian culture is too laid-back. Common thing Australians do (IMO) is being super friendly and act like close friends, then split back into strangers. Maybe I'll move to nomadic countries, they seem to be autism-friendly

[candycanearter07]

I made a lot of good and close friends online in my teens and early 20s through my minecraft communities. They were people I stayed in contact with for years (some were close enough that we'd be texting most of the day), we were part of each others lives growing from teens, to seeing some of them getting married, getting jobs and having kids. Some of them I met in person, we traveled together, and in every respect they were true friends.

wow... youre so lucky i wish i had stuff like that :(

Even IRL I struggle to make friends. I cannot for the life of me ask someone I work with in uni if they want to go somewhere outside of uni.
Same. It takes me a good minute to send a message just asking a question. I'm always worried I'll sound like an asshole or too blunt.

same... i have exactly one irl friend that i literally ran into by going to a random event on campus and i dont talk to enough but like idk what to talk about like

im pretty talkative IN class but like asking to do stuff outside of class feels really weird and idk how normal people deal with it

[Noah_S]

I'm very selective with the word "friend". I differentiate between people I'm friendly with and friends.

I have one person who I consider a friend. We met over a decade ago in a hobby group on facebook. My last post on facebook was over half a decade ago, and he's barely there anymore. We live in different countries, but we've met in meatspace many times. We noticed early on that we have similar values. There was more there than having fun together. We've talked daily for years at this point.

I dispute the idea that you can't make friends online. But it's rare to find someone who stays in your life when circumstances change. Friendship takes effort, regardless of where you meet. Otherwise it's someone you spend time with out of convenience. And there's nothing wrong with socializing with people because you're in proximity to each other, but that's different from friendships.

I thought I had more friends. All of them left when I became disabled in ways that affected their fun or my usefulness. I was treated like a broken appliance. People weren't willing to once in a while participate in an accessible event so that I could come along because that wasn't quite as fun for them. I wasn't able to be the one who would drop everything and come to help. I even dared ask to not be around someone who repeatedly told me that it's my own fault that I'm disabled because if I didn't want it, then I'd manifest being healthy. And he was more fun to have around. He was less inconvenient.

It got hard to make friends after that. I had to start over socially. And I ended up with multiple people who used me to boost their own ego. Who wanted praise for gracing me with their presence because beggars can't be choosers and I had to put up with what I could get. Who didn't want me to be happy at any time when I wasn't with them because they wanted me to need them. And the last of the old "friends" left because my attempts at meeting new people failed, so there had to be something wrong with me and they had done an act of heroism to keep me around for so long. Yes, she called talking with me every few weeks an act of heroism. Because I'm disabled and therefore useless to her.

And this stuff happened regardless if it was people I had met offline or online. People you meet offline aren't by default better friends.

[lakes]

And this stuff happened regardless if it was people I had met offline or online. People you meet offline aren't by default better friends.

I agree with this statement. While I get why offline friends are important and more beneficial both psychologically and in terms of helping each other out, I don't like this assumption people have that offline friends are inherently more "true friends" than online ones. That's not always true. If you're in an area with bigots or otherwise can't be your true self, offline friendships can feel more hollow than online ones, particularly if your marginalized status isn't something that's always "visible." Hell, people in real life can be just as judgemental as online in my experience. It's often less overt and not as common, sure. But it still happens.

[citizenalex]

I agree with this. People are people whether online or off and the key is to find people who value relationship wherever that happens. I think the main advantage for friendships IRL is that there are potentially a greater variety of opportunities for shared experiences and a greater number of channels through which information about the state of the relationship comes. It's potentially richer but not everyone in the physical world makes use of what's available. 

[Noah_S]

If you're in an area with bigots or otherwise can't be your true self, offline friendships can feel more hollow than online ones, particularly if your marginalized status isn't something that's always "visible."

You just described me.

[arcus]

I'm confused by the direction of this thread. This thread was made in response to threads made by members that wanted to make friends on the indie web, but had problems in doing so.

The focus here is discussing personal difficulties on forming friendships on the indie web, for anyone that wants to do that. MediocreMetastasis' thread Who do you consider an "online friend" is more relevant to the topic of online friendship in general.

I agree with this statement. While I get why offline friends are important and more beneficial both psychologically and in terms of helping each other out, I don't like this assumption people have that offline friends are inherently more "true friends" than online ones. That's not always true.

This doesn't sit right with me either. There's at least two members here that have met their spouses online.

If you're in an area with bigots or otherwise can't be your true self, offline friendships can feel more hollow than online ones, particularly if your marginalized status isn't something that's always "visible." Hell, people in real life can be just as judgemental as online in my experience. It's often less overt and not as common, sure. But it still happens.

This describes multiple posters of the threads I linked, which is who this thread is primarily aimed at.