Is there a mobile-friendly webring?

[Limette]

I'm currently on my phone, thinking about how hard it is to find websites on the indie web that are optimized for mobile screens. It's one of the things that makes it difficult for me to get my friends into it, since not everyone has a computer, or they just prefer to browse on mobile.

Then it hit me: this could easily be solved by a webring for mobile-friendly sites! I wonder if one already exists? If not, well... I'd love to host one myself, but as a free neocities citizen with very little "real" coding experience (or energy for yet another big project) I'm not sure how feasible that would be. I bet there are plenty of tutorials and templates for making webrings, but it seems intimidating.

[futurearcana]

I like the idea, and having a website that's easily accessible on mobile is something that I do and that's important to me personally, but it's useful only for fruition.

My idea of the reason why the indie web is so tightly bound to traditional desktop computers is that smartphones and tablets are really only tools for consumption and not creation.

The idea of the indie web is creation, as opposed to blind consumption. You don't just browse other people's websites, you join in on the fun and carve your own corner of the internet.

And you can't (easily) do that on a phone. In fact, I think very few people have the ability to create and update a proper indie website on a phone, and even then it's quite a pain anyways.

On a desktop computer you just open up whatever text editor is preinstalled, or even just the neocities editor and start hacking away. And you can easily browse documentation and reference other people's work at the same time.

This said, if you want to make a mobile friendly webring, I'd say go for it! I haven't created one myself, but I've done a little bit of mental reasoning and I think it would be quite easy and fairly dynamic too without the need to involve a backend, particularly if you rely on some clever logic and page redirecting via javascript. I could get into more detail, or I could just hack together some tool to make this even easier, so I actually might do that instead.

[lildevildog]

  I understand the want for this, because I too have tried to open up Neocities sites and the like while i'm laying in bed, but every time i do that, I don't quite feel right, even if the site is able to be interacted with on mobile. Despite me sometimes wanting to look at the indie web on mobile, I do think its something that has a specific charm and vibe on a dedicated desktop or laptop. I think the indie web needs to be experienced on desktop or similar because of the concept of logging off. I feel that a lot of the time, the internet should be experienced as a visit to a place online, and then I think the people visiting those places should log off and leave. And they can revisit that space if they'd really like, but later. I think that we've(myself included, totally guilty of Youtube addiction) become way too dependent on unfettered access to all major sites online, and we should lock ourselves down to desktop or laptop usage. It's not been good for us and I think Melonland and other sites are special because we go to a desktop and visit them. In the end, But in the end, I'm just really, really glad that the indie web exists at all, so do what you will.(sorry if there are typos, I am a bit tipsy atm.)

[glitchlynx]

There is a web directory for sites that are responsive and work on different devices: https://kalechips.net/responsive/index

I also like to check on bearblog on mobile sometimes - also not a webring, but it hosts a lot of personal blogs that are almost all usable on mobile.

(I know I've also come across other groups and lists that focus on very small and simple personal sites as well, which tend to inherently fit on any screen size due to their simple layout and lack of decoration. There was some challenge going around for making sites under a certain number of megabytes... I cannot remember or find the link right now, maybe someone else will know what I'm thinking of.)

[IndigoGolem]

I see lildevildog's point, that needing a computer forces you to not spend every waking moment and more on these sites. I also see my own computer habits. I don't have a smartphone at all and that doesn't bother me because i do computing stuff on my computer instead. So instead of spending huge portions of every day on a phone, i spend that time on a laptop. I'm not on it in bed or on the toilet, but it's still a lot.

As for futurearcana's point, i agree. I remember some years ago coding on my phone because i had some free time and a tool i could improve, and it was not nearly as easy or comfortable or fast as doing the same thing on a computer with a keyboard. Having a keyboard and a bigger screen is a huge help to making things like this. But i don't think that should be an excuse to exclude people who (can) only use the Web with a phone. Probably they'll consume content regardless of what we do with our websites. Making this stuff available and accessible to mobile users just means that they have more alternatives to big social media when they really want to look at something online. I guess what we need is more and better tools for creating stuff on phones. An HTML editor that makes inserting tags easy, an image editor for compressing pictures or drawing buttons, developer tools in the mobile versions of browsers.

(also, page redirecting can be done with just HTML, no JS required)

I think my site is mostly mobile-friendly. A couple experimental pages and the IPA chart might not work well on a phone, because of screen size, and the home page could be more responsive. It's hard to be sure tho, since again i don't have a smartphone to test it on.

If someone makes this ring and my site holds up to Firefox' responsive design mode, i'll join it. If nobody makes this ring i'll consider doing it myself.

There was some challenge going around for making sites under a certain number of megabytes... I cannot remember or find the link right now, maybe someone else will know what I'm thinking of.

https://forum.melonland.net/index.php?topic=590
Maybe this. Floppy disk mini-sites.

[ashParadise]

I'd love to see/join a mobile responsive webring! 

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I actually changed my tune because of a page by a webring neighbor (who it appears has moved or left the webring, I can't find them now!) that talked about mobile responsiveness as an accessibility feature. As someone who came to indie web BECAUSE i've been so disillusioned with my phone/modern socials/etc. it really did change the way I think of it, I was actively mobile-hostile in my very early days lol.

I've actually been trying to figure out if it would be feasible to teach a mobile-inclusive intro to indie web community class, but it's really hard to find a good way to create/edit pages on mobile. Possibly I could use a simple single-page format to get people interested, and then encourage them to find a cheap laptop or use the free computers at the public library?

[Limette]

My idea of the reason why the indie web is so tightly bound to traditional desktop computers is that smartphones and tablets are really only tools for consumption and not creation.

The idea of the indie web is creation, as opposed to blind consumption. You don't just browse other people's websites, you join in on the fun and carve your own corner of the internet.

I understand the want for this, because I too have tried to open up Neocities sites and the like while i'm laying in bed, but every time i do that, I don't quite feel right, even if the site is able to be interacted with on mobile. Despite me sometimes wanting to look at the indie web on mobile, I do think its something that has a specific charm and vibe on a dedicated desktop or laptop. I think the indie web needs to be experienced on desktop or similar because of the concept of logging off. I feel that a lot of the time, the internet should be experienced as a visit to a place online, and then I think the people visiting those places should log off and leave.

While I agree with the sentiment here, that phones are very consumption oriented and you end up having a more healthy experience on a desktop, I also think that it's a bit unreasonable, and perhaps even privileged, to want everyone to interact with the indie web on a desktop/laptop.

I don't think that the indie web should only be for people who want to/have the means to actively contribute to it. It encourages participation, and that's one of my favorite parts about it, but I don't think it's wrong for some people to just want to browse the websites, without making their own. You can still comment on guestbooks and participate in forums on a phone, or even run a blog through something like bearblog as well, so it's not like mobile users are utterly barred from participation. Not everyone needs to code, and I think expecting that of people adds an unnecessary barrier to entry. The indie web should be a welcoming and open place that anyone can join, and I think that should include mobile users.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I actually changed my tune because of a page by a webring neighbor (who it appears has moved or left the webring, I can't find them now!) that talked about mobile responsiveness as an accessibility feature. As someone who came to indie web BECAUSE i've been so disillusioned with my phone/modern socials/etc. it really did change the way I think of it, I was actively mobile-hostile in my very early days lol.

I often think about one of the reasons WHY I got into the indie web: I wanted a healthier replacement for my doomscrolling habits. On a desktop, I have just that with all of these websites to explore, but on a phone... it almost feels like mindless consumption is your only option for entertainment. I want people to have more available than that.

And like I said, it's hard to pitch the indie web to people, because I always have to preface it with "oh  by the way, you should do this on your computer, most sites are terrible on mobile screens." If I instead could point them at a webring for responsive websites, it would give them something they can check out instantly, and without much of a barrier.

But ultimately, I'd just enjoy if I could catch myself when I'm scrolling on my phone again, decide I'd be better off browsing neocities, and then go do that instead. As of now, there's always the in-between step of launching my computer, and I can't always do that, even if I prefer it over using my phone.

There is a web directory for sites that are responsive and work on different devices: https://kalechips.net/responsive/index

I also like to check on bearblog on mobile sometimes - also not a webring, but it hosts a lot of personal blogs that are almost all usable on mobile.

Thank you for that directory! It looks exactly like what I want... ironically, I wouldn't consider my own site fully mobile responsive yet, so I won't submit myself until I'm done with it.

Blogs are also a great point, they tend to be fine on phones and are kind of my go-to for exploring the indie web on mobile, alongside forums that have responsive layouts.

[Noah_S]

While not a webring, petrapixel's indieweb database lets you search for mobile friendly.

[futurearcana]

As an aside, I completed the first prototype of a functionality-only theme for my static site generator Rubedo, to hopefully make it easier to create a webring. This makes fully static webrings, driven by a little bit of javascript, so if you don't have a backend you should be good to go. Feel free to use it as inspiration for your own implementation if you prefer to go that route.

• Rubedo: https://rubedo.gabmus.org
• Rubedo Webring: https://codeberg.org/gabmus/rubedo-webring

[lildevildog]

While I agree with the sentiment here, that phones are very consumption oriented and you end up having a more healthy experience on a desktop, I also think that it's a bit unreasonable, and perhaps even privileged, to want everyone to interact with the indie web on a desktop/laptop.

People can go to a store and buy a basic, no frills laptop for 200-300 dollars(or less sometimes depending on sales and whatnot), less than the cost of many smartphone models if they felt the want to join in on what the indie web(as well as some sites on the contemporary web) has to offer in its full and unabridged form. I'm not saying people should spend thousands on a gaming rig to browse websites, you don't need to spend anywhere near that amount to browse websites. I really don't think it's all that privileged.

[Noah_S]

People can go to a store and buy a basic, no frills laptop for 200-300 dollars(or less sometimes depending on sales and whatnot), less than the cost of many smartphone models if they felt the want to join in on what the indie web(as well as some sites on the contemporary web) has to offer in its full and unabridged form. I'm not saying people should spend thousands on a gaming rig to browse websites, you don't need to spend anywhere near that amount to browse websites. I really don't think it's all that privileged.

I'd rather say that if saying that affording a no extra stuff computer is privileged, then affording a smartphone is also privileged.

And I'm still browsing the internet with a computer that's older than the phone that I can't do online banking with anymore. Phones need to be replaced much more frequently for those reasons.

[arcus]

There's the mobile friendly webring on Nekoweb. Guilds on Melonland have an optional webring feature, that automatically makes a webring out of members that are in the guild. If you wanted to start one with members here, that's an easy option.


Internet addiction was a thing well before smartphones: This article from 1996 talks about it. The internet being a place you would log in and out of was never a reality for everyone.

People can go to a store and buy a basic, no frills laptop for 200-300 dollars(or less sometimes depending on sales and whatnot), less than the cost of many smartphone models if they felt the want to join in on what the indie web(as well as some sites on the contemporary web) has to offer in its full and unabridged form.

$200-$300 (USD?) is a lot for browsing what's supposed to be an inexpensive hobby. That's multiple weeks worth of food for someone that's scraping by.

I'd rather say that if saying that affording a no extra stuff computer is privileged, then affording a smartphone is also privileged.

Having a phone number is required to own and keep a bank account in many countries, along with having an account with major email providers. No bank account = no income at all. No email = no government programmes. Some phones come on plans with credit, making them cheaper than a laptop in the short term.

[IndigoGolem]

Brennan Kennneth wrote about the other side of this, writing blogs from a phone. I wonder if that's in response to this, directly or otherwise.

[glitchlynx]

https://forum.melonland.net/index.php?topic=590
Maybe this. Floppy disk mini-sites.

Yes! I don't think that's the exact site I found before, but it's the same idea. A website that small is probably going to be 'mobile-friendly' be default. Can't really have a complex layout if there is that little to lay out in the first place.

[lildevildog]

That's multiple weeks worth of food for someone that's scraping by.

So is the price of a smartphone. I really don't think someone deciding they want to participate in the indie web in this way and saving for a little while to get a laptop if that's needed is a big deal. *shrug* Agree to disagree I guess.