Struggles with Socialisation on the Indie Web

[lakes]

You just described me.

I know because I'm in a similar situation.

I'm confused by the direction of this thread. This thread was made in response to threads made by members that wanted to make friends on the indie web, but had problems in doing so.

The focus here is discussing personal difficulties on forming friendships on the indie web, for anyone that wants to do that. MediocreMetastasis' thread Who do you consider an "online friend" is more relevant to the topic of online friendship in general.

This describes multiple posters of the threads I linked, which is who this thread is primarily aimed at.

In that case, to get the thread back on track, I'm gonna answer with how I make friends in these spaces.
Following people on sites like Neocities, Nekoweb, or even just talking on a forum regularly can sometimes pique people's interest and help them see if they wanna be friends with you. I also try not to be afraid when reaching out using the contact info on someone's website. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But they often respond even if it doesn't always result in friendship. If you don't wanna do email, it helps to be on alternative instant messengers. For example, I switched to a friend's VPS from Nekoweb because I contacted the XMPP account on his website and we just hit it off.

[candycanearter07]

i email people sometimes but it still feels frustratingly disconnected and like im just kinda there talking to them and not being able to actually build anything and stuff

[Noah_S]

What I was trying and failing to say in my first post is that if someone has actually made friends on social media, then leaving and coming to the indie web shouldn't be a hindrance keeping in contact. What I meant and what I ended up writing ended up different because I got scared of saying that friendship requires effort.

I suppose that's one way that social media has affected me.

Also to get back on track.

I would advice looking for people who value similar things to you.

I don't really know anything about the becoming friends process. Before I went to a meatspace hobby meetup where the person I mentioned earlier would be, I messaged him to briefly explain my disability because it was gonna affect meatspace interactions and I didn't want to be a confusing mess. Then he was accepting when we were there and I'm still confused about how we ended up in continued contact, except that I made the active decision that I wanted to try and messaged him about a TV show a bit after the meetup.

[chilblands]

I'm confused by the direction of this thread. This thread was made in response to threads made by members that wanted to make friends on the indie web, but had problems in doing so.

You are right and I apologise. To return on track- I find that personally emailing people is the easiest way to connect, for me its more like digital pen-pal. An email feels more well crafted and well intentioned than "sliding into DMs". It is also easier to digitally approach someone when you semi know them based on their blog posts. Something like "oh I really love xyz I would like to know more about...".

My friend dated someone she used to play games with. They only talked online; but once they started dating, they traveled to each other's state. I'm not very coherent but my point is: online relationships are possible, but like any other relationships, commitment is still needed. Similar to dating apps, you talk online first and decide if it's a match. It's not like daycare when you pick a random person and say "we are friends now". You can try to talk to someone and your vibes don't match, totally normal, just move on. Talk to someone, send them an email or something! Same with real life- strike up a conversation.

THROW THE BALL AND SEE IF THEY THROW IT BACK Worse case: stranger rejecting you, best case: new friend.

[MediocreMetastasis]

I'll try and answer some questions @arcus

What would you say are the most difficult aspects of meeting new people on the indie web?

I already stated this in my previous reply but it's the fact I don't get an immediate (or relatively quick) response when I message someone. If it takes more than a day to get a response back I get bored and end the conversation (not that the conversation is boring just my ADHD brain wants dopamine now!!). Not getting responses back fast is partly the reason I unintentionally took a hiatus from the forum. On the other hand, messaging friends on Instagram or people on Discord you get a response in less than a couple of hours.
Indie web is quite slow in terms of communication compared to other social medias hence why people write long paragraphs instead of short sentences. 

While I do have an RSS notification app. I feel like it's difficult to get notified if someone responded to me on the indieweb. IDK why maybe because my phone doesn't ping me about the indieweb like it does about social media apps.

Would you say social media has had an impact on the way you interact with others online?

Definitely, It is expected that you write short responses. Too long and people will literally tell you "I ain't reading that"

Would you say personal aspects of yourself (such as age, disability, gender, beliefs,) make it harder to meet new people?

Yeah. I have ADHD and mild anxiety so I find it difficult to break the ice. I always wish someone else would come up and talk to me as once I'm in the conversation I'm fine, but starting it is very intimidating.
This is the same IRL and Online, however, online the difficulty is branching out to unrelated topics. Making replies to thread (for me) is pretty easy. Sliding into DMs on the otherhand, feels pervasive. It doesn't help when other people of my gender harass people through DMs so I always feel like I'm doing what they're doing.

Have you reached out to someone else on the indie web before? If not, why not?

One rare occasions, but it never goes anywhere. Like I said previously, it feels intimidating trying to start the conversation.

What would personally help you with making new friends on the indie web?

A more better notifier that someone is messaging you on the indieweb. Maybe a Icebreaker generator or a website that encourages you to DM strangers just something that takes away the invisible wall that prevents me messaging people unsolicited.

[ValyceNegative]

Thanks OP for pointing out the sheer abundance of threads with similar subjects. I was about to open my own! XD Albeit it wanted to specifically talk about the difference in making friends back then in the old net vs making them now, in the web revival. However, this is indeed a circular argument and it's going to naturally cycle around general struggles, the difference between online and real relationships, and how we percieve sociality now that social media has taken that word and beaten its meaning to the ground. I think replying to your questions is enough to make a well rounded point about the situation.

What would you say are the most difficult aspects of meeting new people on the indie web?

If we are talking about my specific experience with the specific web revival hangout spaces I've tried out (Melonland forums and Neocities), it's definitely feeling physically separated from all these people who supposedly look so close to me due to virtuality. This is due to a lack of local communitues.

In this post, I'm going to offer practical examples by listing how I socialized in the forum era VS how I (fail to) socialize now, and this is the first one: when I hopped into forums or chats (be them MSN or IRC), they almost always were communities based on my own nation, at times even region. Italy is a relatively small country, which meant that regular users of my online hangouts were, at most, a 5 hour train ride between eachother. It was easy to organize meetups at places like amusement parks or conventions or even vacations during summer. This helped consolidate our friendship into a long lasting relationship that survived years after our main forum closed. I married one of those friends met at the forum, and the others have attended our wedding!
I am unable to find web revival communities focused on my territory (closest I have found is the italian webring) and the internationality of Melonland/Neocities makes me aware that I won't be able to easily meet whoever I befriend, turning friendships into pen pals, at best.

Would you say social media has had an impact on the way you interact with others online?
I don't use social media but I can tell in general, the follower/creator dynamic at the base of these spaces is at the core of their dysfunctionality. While the concept of popularity existed in the old web (website with a lot of hits, topsites, awards, "senior" forum users with a huge post count) it was usually associated to an active, top quality user rather than someone that was kissed by the algorhythm for 15 minutes. And yeah, snooty users have always existed but a lot of popular personalities back then would communicate with you as your peer even if you were just starting out. In social media, a fan or a follower is instead seen as a mere number and the account creator is less inclined to open up to them unless they already are someone with big numbers on their shoulders.

Would you say personal aspects of yourself (such as age, disability, gender, beliefs,) make it harder to meet new people?
Yes. Age is a big thing now, and it surprises me because in the old web it wasn't! Back to my old forum discourse where we mainly discussed about art, animation and comics, I could regularly talk and share opinions with people 10, 20 years older than me. The cultural baggage difference helped create nice discussions about themes, styles and trends that enriched both parts of the conversation. Now that I am getting as old as my old friends were at the time, I do not feel comfortable around users younger than me, even though all I potentially talk about are art styles, aesthetics, and comic/animation techniques. If we want to go even further, I'm not even sure if new generations of furries periceve the fandom as an "art hobby" as me and other classic era furries do. There's a lot of generational divide and an "us VS them" mentality that blocks diverse discourse from happening. While I understand the safety concerns (bad apples are everywhere, and I had been reckless at times when I should have been more cautious way back then), creating same age "echo chambers" creates superficiality and stagnation in the art wolrd. I suppose it would be the same case for online sociality in general as well.

Have you reached out to someone else on the indie web before? If not, why not?


I regularly send out emails for affiliating, listing, webrings, and all that. Most of these email exchanges become prolonged conversations because naturally, I end up meeting people with similar interests. However, these relationships don't move further from the "pen pal" stage, and I constantly blame my lack of free time for the inability to do more. I'd love to art trade or make gifts for my affiliates. I'd love to initiate conversation more often. I'd love to create some community events for people who are regulars on my site. Sometimes, I even feel a little shy. My first emails are always a little more formal than what I'd like them to be, and I always have the lingering sensation I am bothering the reciepent. But that's just me, I don't think I have ever recieved an angry respinse from any I have ever reached out to.

What would personally help you with making new friends on the indie web?
As much as the modern internet landscape has changed our spcial habits, I don't think help should come from yet anpther internet infrastructure. Chats and forums are already there, new communities are opened each day. It's that we are unwilling or unable to make the first step towards our peers. Help needs to come from inside us. For me specifically, it would be to physically find more time to dedicate to this hobby and to the community it created.

[arcus]

Thanks for answering the questions!

In the past when I've replied to the threads in the OP, I gave advice based on my own experiences, without thinking what made things harder for OP or what they wanted. Giving advice on how to reach out isn't bad, but we can also work on making it easier for others to reach out in the first place.

Unlike @MediocreMetastasis, I prefer slower communication. If they made a thread asking for advice, my advice wouldn't help them. I also have no problem with writing longer posts, I worry more about not writing enough.

And unlike @ValyceNegative (and seemingly a lot of others in this thread,) I like making online friends as a way to learn more about the world. I like the distance and how it's a different experience to having friends locally. There are things my friends overseas have told me that I couldn't have learnt from a book or otherwise.

Albeit it wanted to specifically talk about the difference in making friends back then in the old net vs making them now, in the web revival.

That's close to what I had in mind with this thread and why I specified the indie web. The culture differences of older and modern online socialisation compared to the indie web, not online friendships vs offline friendships. I can see how that wasn't clear. I didn't want to focus on the past too much, because that would have excluded younger members, and their perspective on this is important too.

What would you say are the most difficult aspects of meeting new people on the indie web?

Compared to the web in the 2000's, there's less reasons to start a conversation with someone, and the reply thing I mention later on.

Would you say social media has had an impact on the way you interact with others online?

Yes, building off what ValyceNegative said, the culture online has shifted. I see this as a social problem caused by infrastructure that can't be fixed with infrastructure alone.

Thanks to Twitter's reply culture I'm always second guessing if it's okay to contact someone, despite not using that site. I've also had others apologise to me over things that weren't something to apologise over, such as saying too much or saying hi unprompted.

On Twitter, replies on posts are impolite depending on the post and who posted it. This wasn't an issue on the 2000s web because if you didn't want replies? You would use privacy controls to set your boundaries. Twitter's privacy controls were flimsy, so it became a social problem. Tumblr had a similar problem with post comments as well.
 

Have you reached out to someone else on the indie web before? If not, why not?

Yes. I don't have much more to add. I'm curious how many have, since the penpal and XMPP threads are pretty lengthy despite all the threads in the OP.

What would personally help you with making new friends on the indie web?

More ice breakers in contact threads, and maybe even a field for that here for anyone that wants to contact you? I put "Feel free to message me unprompted about anything." on my profile and it seemingly helps. More casual community events would be nice too. I agree that this is largely a social problem and not an infrastructure problem.

[clownvomitz]

I feel like I've always been in a weird boat when it comes to socializing both on and offline, though I find the former to be a lot more comfortable for me. For the record, I do tend to hold my online relationships pretty close, but they're few in far between due to the fact that I'm a bit of a recluse at my core. I don't think online friendships are inherently "lesser" to a certain degree, considering I've met my boyfriend that I currently live with on Discord of all places LOL, but I can 100% acknowledge that real life relationships do hit differently, but that's besides the point.

   What would you say are the most difficult aspects of meeting new people on the indie web?
   

I'll be honest, social anxiety. I've been trying to make an effort to comment on more guestbooks and things of that nature to meet more people, and it's been fun!

   

   Would you say social media has had an impact on the way you interact with others online?
   

Admittedly, yes. After crawling around on the internet for most of my life, I've found a lot of people on socmed in recent years have become very combative towards others, which is a big reason as to why I don't use socmed anymore, but I also find that fear creeping in that if I reach out to someone they'll be annoyed or something. A decent chunk of people on socmed act like DMing or pinging someone is the equivalent of breaking into their house and interrogating them. A lot of people in this thread wrote a lot better about this point than I have, though.
 
   

   Would you say personal aspects of yourself (such as age, disability, gender, beliefs,) make it harder to meet new people?
   

Oh yeah. At the risk of being TMI, I have a weird mix of disabilities that make it pretty difficult to be consistent in friendships. I'm lucky to have some long-term friends who have stuck with me through long silent periods of my life, and I do truly treasure them, but I feel like as a person I struggle with connection on a deep level.

I also agree with ValyceNegative regarding age; I remember when I was super young and just existing throughout random spots on the web and feeling generally accepted because everyone was just kind of some random behind a screen that I didn't know anything about, but now I feel like the internet has become a lot more personal of a place, both for better and for worse.

   

   Have you reached out to someone else on the indie web before? If not, why not?
   

Honestly, not directly. Refer to question 1 and 3 for why heh.

   

   What would personally help you with making new friends on the indie web?
   

I wouldn't say I've really made friends yet, but I definitely have sites I frequent and people I recognize on certain forums that I enjoy speaking with. Mostly, just being consistent in a sense of being online and seeking out cool places to mingle in has helped me a lot with being more social.

[ValyceNegative]

And unlike @ValyceNegative (and seemingly a lot of others in this thread,) I like making online friends as a way to learn more about the world. I like the distance and how it's a different experience to having friends locally. There are things my friends overseas have told me that I couldn't have learnt from a book or otherwise.

Oh my bad, I didn't mean to sound like I don't enjoy interacting from people all over the world. Infact, I agree with you it's an amazing way to open one's own mind and learn about different cultures and point of views! My only point about distance is that I feel it plays a big part on keeping friendships "colder" compared a friendship that can spark between people that can easily meet up. However, if one's objective of online friendship is to have pen pals and being okay with not developing further, then what I have mentioned is not an actual problem. We can move on, haha xD

About the "reply culture" thing, that totally explains why I don't see comments under art anymore, not even in art sites.

[arcus]

Thinking back on a thread on net etiquette, maybe etiquette rules on comments could help make indie web communities more approachable? That would help me personally with the issue I have with modern reply culture.

[Xx halfempty xX]

People who would be there for you during your hard times and vice versa? Or did social media train people to view acquaintances as friends?

Wow, this opened up a part of my brain

[Xx halfempty xX]

What would you say are the most difficult aspects of meeting new people on the indie web?

If we are talking about my specific experience with the specific web revival hangout spaces I've tried out (Melonland forums and Neocities), it's definitely feeling physically separated from all these people who supposedly look so close to me due to virtuality. This is due to a lack of local communitues.

In this post, I'm going to offer practical examples by listing how I socialized in the forum era VS how I (fail to) socialize now, and this is the first one: when I hopped into forums or chats (be them MSN or IRC), they almost always were communities based on my own nation, at times even region. Italy is a relatively small country, which meant that regular users of my online hangouts were, at most, a 5 hour train ride between eachother. It was easy to organize meetups at places like amusement parks or conventions or even vacations during summer. This helped consolidate our friendship into a long lasting relationship that survived years after our main forum closed. I married one of those friends met at the forum, and the others have attended our wedding!
I am unable to find web revival communities focused on my territory (closest I have found is the italian webring) and the internationality of Melonland/Neocities makes me aware that I won't be able to easily meet whoever I befriend, turning friendships into pen pals, at best.

SAME (but not the same because im 17)!!!! back in the day, us filipinos had Pinoy Exchange (PeX), Symbianize, Habbo hotel Rooms and forums, and we used mIRC a lot. We also had a strong blogging community.

Nowadays, its hard for us to become friends with people in the indie web/web revival communities.

It's so international and interconnected, but the connections start and end in the PC.

Starting a website/blog is no longer the cool thing to do, using the html/css skills you learned in high school and expanding upon them isn't trendy anymore.

Most of us stay in Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and some stay in Reddit.

if you want to join an indie web/web revival community made by filipinos, for filipinos, you'll have to dig deep

[totel]

This doesn't sit right with me either. There's at least two members here that have met their spouses online.

make that three. online is how i met my fiance, and the only reason we aren't married yet is because of some legal stuff. :]

i have an opposite problem to majority of this thread - i actually miss having online friends. i guess i'm mostly talking to my gf most of the time, since we are so close and stuff, and i just miss having a community. but i have no idea how to socialize! i have a spacehey account and i have no idea how to approach people in indie web!

it's easier on soc media/tumblr specifically where i have various mutuals and can chat with them, but indie web remains a mystery to me. (the socialization part, that is.) 

[candycanearter07]

What would you say are the most difficult aspects of meeting new people on the indie web?

just like getting close to people i guess, like i only have a few people id really consider "close" friends online, and even then a lot of the time im terrified that they dont consider me close and that tends to ruin a lot of my relationships so

Would you say social media has had an impact on the way you interact with others online?

like i said before, i dont use social media again because i kinda just fell off every one ive tried, bbbbut i think it kinda impacted how much i "idolize" people or like see certain people as way above me just because they get a lot of interaction

Would you say personal aspects of yourself (such as age, disability, gender, beliefs,) make it harder to meet new people?

no im the most boring person ever lol

Have you reached out to someone else on the indie web before? If not, why not?

ive emailed people about their blog posts and sometimes gotten replies

    What would personally help you with making new friends on the indie web?

iidont know. maybe just some realtime events like calls or video games or something