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kurohaato
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« on: September 03, 2023 @740.45 »

CBS Sunday Morning: The Science of Worsening Online Behavior


From the YouTube description: "Online anonymity has made it easy, and depressingly common, to be nasty without fear of repercussions – a lack of restraint that psychologists call online disinhibition effect, or ODE. Correspondent David Pogue talks with experts who discuss why exchanges on the Internet can devolve into hateful, spiteful rages and name-calling that would never be socially acceptable when talking face-to-face. (Originally broadcast October 16, 2022.)"

I saw this short little clip on the news this morning and I thought it would be a good jumping off point for a discussion. So, let's discuss! How do you deal with online arguments? Do you think you argue more online than offline? Bonus question for those of us who spend time in both modern web and web revival spaces: Do you feel like you have a different approach to online arguments in web revival/old web spaces as opposed to arguments on the modern web?

I personally don't argue much online. I find it more valuable to my time and mental health to just ignore, block, and/or report the poster instead of interacting with it. It's not that I don't get angry at content I find online, I still have negative comments from years ago taking up real estate in my brain, it's just that I don't usually feel like my arguments will add anything to the overall conversation. I don't really find myself arguing more or less in old web spaces than on modern web platforms, though I couldn't tell you how much of that's because I don't argue and how much of it is due to the environment. That being said, I have noticed a disturbing trend on modern social media sites (especially TikTok) where people defend getting into arguments by saying they're just "matching your/their energy".

Watching this actually reminds me of an old CGP Grey video about anger and clickbait. (video here, related articles if you don't like getting information solely from a YouTube stick figure: NBC Psychology Today Smithsonian Magazine) Not quite the same topic and probably a discussion for another time, though he does make a good point about how online arguments can devolve into an us versus them comment war.
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shevek
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2023 @804.36 »

How do you deal with online arguments? Do you think you argue more online than offline? Bonus question for those of us who spend time in both modern web and web revival spaces: Do you feel like you have a different approach to online arguments in web revival/old web spaces as opposed to arguments on the modern web?

I used to argue a lot online when I was a teen, especially on Tumblr and Facebook. It wasn't all bad in my case, I think it improved my language, my reasoning, and taught me to type a lot and really put my thought process into words. It also distracted me and gave me attention as a side effect. But I assume it was motivated in part by my autism - I was still trying to learn a lot of the unwritten social rules, I had a hard time seeing things from others' perspectives and my approaches felt more logical and superior; and it fueled the teenage know-it-all behavior we all have in puberty. Not to mention that I used to suck at detecting sarcasm, irony or trolling, so I would get legitimately upset about these things. All in all, I think it was a phase I simply had to go through for a better development and growth. I still type quickly, I love writing essays and debating points in blog posts or other online spaces, but I am a bit better at the social stuff now and detecting what's serious and worth responding to and what isn't.

So nowadays I stay much more coolheaded, I pick my battles, and I prefer to do it with people I know, because there are actually stakes involved that remind each participant to be nice and not ruin a connection over something small. Everyone seems to be burnt out from online discourse with strangers nowadays and is barely seeing the other person replying as human, so I simply don't get the impression that a stranger could change anyone's mind. But in a friend circle, you don't want to create drama or be mean and have everyone dislike that interaction or you, so you have an incentive to stay more civil, remember the human, and interpret the other person in good faith. I can discuss with them and they take me seriously, and I take them seriously, too. We know how we are outside of this interaction, and we might know eachothers' history or what else is going on in our lives at the moment. That really helps. So I know that when a discussion goes sideways or someone responds in a way that is a little rude, I can remember that they are really stressed out right now, and I can try to deescalate and show understanding. Meanwhile, with online strangers, I don't know anything about what is going on or how they usually are, so it is quick and easy to assume they are simply like that all the time and it is intended in a rude manner. Not helpful.

The rare occasion I do argue online, it is more for myself or a third, uninvolved person witnessing it, than the person I am talking to or about. It makes me think deeper about my own position, makes me refine my arguments, and helps me stay "on top of my game". And if some uninvolved third people get something out of it, that is also fine by me. I never argue with the intention to reach the other person or change their mind when we are online and don't know eachother, because I consider it futile. I've actually done this about 2 days ago, and writing out my position like that was fun and almost meditative for me.
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2023 @822.06 »

How do you deal with online arguments? Do you think you argue more online than offline? Bonus question for those of us who spend time in both modern web and web revival spaces: Do you feel like you have a different approach to online arguments in web revival/old web spaces as opposed to arguments on the modern web?
How do you deal with online arguments? I don't :D. I simply ignore or block. I don't have TIME to be arguing with some fool!!! For real though, as per my manifesto, I'm here for a fun time only. Arguing isn't very fun, so I either avoid it or cut it out completely by blocking.

I do enjoy debating, especially with my friends, but even that I grow tired of easily. However using debate as a reference point, I argue the same way online as I do offline. I take my time, try to state my point(s) clearly, and be open to having my views changed. I think it's good to go into "debates" or "arguments" with the mindset of apologising when/if necessary too, unless it's obviously just hatred you're interacting with in which case I'd say: don't.

Arguing is a waste of time for me and I try to avoid it at all times, online and offline. If necessary, I'll ask the other party to leave me alone until I can come at the issue with a less emotional stance. Otherwise, I just don't care enough to engage in arguments.
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2023 @867.89 »

I try to avoid arguments entirely by blocking or refusing to engage or ignoring etc... Even having grown up on social media where arguing was part of the site culture (Tumblr) I never liked getting into arguments myself though I did have a pretty bad habit of mindlessly scrolling through discourse tags.

A lot of people who start arguments online aren't doing it from a sincere place, so I don't owe them my time or sincerity.
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2023 @33.68 »

How do you deal with online arguments?
Ppl who start drama in comments don't usually care, they're just edge lord 12-year-olds who wanna piss us off. And when you actually give a thoughtful response about how a point they brought up was wrong, they hit ya with "dude, it's a public space, I can say what I want" and it just... takes years off my life. I try to not take obvious bait so much these days. And when I do, I at least try to give a thoughtful response. (And usually I don't get one in return.) It's just a migraine with no payoff. You don't feel good after an online argument, so why waste your time? Instead just post a nice comment on a cool post.
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bby
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2023 @384.20 »

How do you deal with online arguments? Do you think you argue more online than offline? Bonus question for those of us who spend time in both modern web and web revival spaces: Do you feel like you have a different approach to online arguments in web revival/old web spaces as opposed to arguments on the modern web?

i don't really post anything publicly, so therefore i don't get into arguments lol.

i do argue some offline though, but only with my conservative family really. i really hate it when people try to get me to change my mind on what i believe, mostly in a political sense but also religiously. so if someone was trying to start an argument about why i'm stupid for not being into qanon and antivaxxer stuff (i've had this happen with a family member who i've cut out of my life), i would just ghost them. there is nothing in the world that could make me believe in that nonsense, and if someone is too deep into that conspiracy there's no way i could get them out of it, so why bother? i'd rather just not associate with that person anymore. obviously i would like for them to get out of it, but they wouldn't listen to me. maybe someday it'll happen, as much as i hate this person i don't want them ruining their children's lives because of this.

so if someone tried to start something online, i would just ignore them and report if necessary. i don't even block people, but if they kept harrassing me i probably would. much like other posters, i really don't have the time or energy to dedicate to arguing. i'd rather spend my time coding or playing a game, way more productive haha.
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2023 @394.71 »

i don't tend to argue online much, mostly i get into arguments with friends about silly things like how many holes a straw has. most online arguments aren't really worth your time imo though, since people being outrageous just to be outrageous is increasingly common
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2023 @545.36 »

There was a nasty little meme about 20 years ago suggesting that arguing on the internet is like participating in the Special Olympics because even if you win you're still a loser in the wider world. I'm not going to replicate the exact text here because it uses slurs.

Nevertheless, I've come to suspect there's a lot of wisdom in that meme, so when I'm on the Fediverse I don't hesitate to block scolds, pedants, and other people who annoy me no matter how trivial the annoyance. Life's too short to put up with unnecessary bullshit when you aren't getting paid to do so and I'm not likely to get any younger any time soon.
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2023 @842.73 »

i think at one i used to get into arguments at one point but then I realized its just a waste of time and energy. Block/ report is usually how i deal with bad faith arguments nowadays. Not to mention there is no way you can win.

And some people will even got out of they´re way to starts fights just for the clout.

Like entire youtubers/tiktokers/etc... will have stuff dedicated to just drama, and I want no part in that.

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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2023 @640.46 »

I never got into online arguments for most of my online life, but there have been instances where I was tempted to get into one of them due to the "discourse" at hand probably grinding my gears, but I just brush it off and go on with my day. These days I block out any kind of discourse by blocking and muting extensively, and this has made my experience with using social media like Twitter (even though I don't use it anymore due to a loss of interest) and TikTok way more bearable than before.

I like curating my feeds alot, and to be honest I don't really care about the discourse that constantly brews in social media these days.  :ha:  :ha:  :ha:  Probably because I'm so sick and tired of seeing it now
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2023 @663.29 »

I have a big problem with getting into online arguments and for me it's like a bad habit, like I got into discourse as a teenager while I was developing and it's made it a chore to undo. I almost always feel awful about myself afterwards no matter what the context was and it makes me feel physically gross afterwards in a way.

I've gotten a lot better at it though, even if I'm still trying to make progress. Forums and finding more chill communities has made it a lot easier, and I've gotten better at just leaving the situation if I need to even if sometimes I still struggle or forget to do it.

It's embarrassing to admit, but I like to be open about it since I know I'm not the only one like this.
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2023 @688.25 »

More often now I wonder what the thoughts of someone who starts an internet argument are. Pretty frequently, whether I'm engaging (rare) or observing (common), my impression is that one person has a particular view or opinion and feels that it isn't well represented or needs to be known/believed/felt by other people, but rather than saying that outright they phrase their view as a question or hide it in another thought or denigrate an opposing view to theirs.

I understand I'm making a bit of a strawman here but a lot of internet arguments could be cleared up if everyone made it obvious what their intention is (though of course this isn't always possible, some people are just 'trolling', and often the stakes are very clear and there isn't a way out of it that leaves everyone satisfied).

Some friends of mine continue to get into online arguments all the time and it just seems fruitless and exhausting. What do you get out of it when the most common outcome is that the other party just stops responding or blocks communication?
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tarraxahum
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2023 @843.02 »

Oh jeez. I am a very argumentative person in real life. Well, maybe saying that I love to debate would be better, but the thing is I know my temper. And when I feel like in a debate my opponent doesn't listen to me or refuses to do research or pay attention to facts I provide or otherwise engage in the discussion in good faith - I get agitated very easily, especially if the topic is something I care about. And it usually is, 'cause otherwise I wouldn't be engaging in that conversation in the first place.

Naturally, since I can't pass up a debate offline, I am the same online. You can probably already tell that it's really hard for me not to engage trolls on topics I care about. Like, most of the time nowadays I even know that I am being baited, but heck, it's so hard to watch someone being dense on purpose and not just call them that.

The Internet changed quite a bit in the last decade or so, as it does. The thing about me is, I usually write/talk a lot, especially, again, on topics I care about. Of course in online arguments that means whole paragraphs of thoughts and reasoning and facts if I can provide those. That's why I'll take a forum over Twitter any day.

And that was usually the norm or something like that, but some time ago a new breed of online arguers emerged: "I'm not reading all that."

Now those people scare me. Do you expect me to debate you properly while using 100 words or less?.. That's something I just can't do, I tried. I'm either giving you a verbal/textual equivalent of a PowerPoint presentation or I'm out, thank you.  :grin:

EDIT: As for the reasoning: because I need to be the most correct person ever and Somebody Was Wrong On The Internet.
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2023 @944.63 »

dont really think anonymity is the case. some of the vilest comments ive seen are consistently from people on facebook with their real names and faces right next to them.
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2023 @44.75 »

as darmodej said, yeah its less a matter of anonymity than it is a degree of separation. i'd say anonymity is just another degree of separation  :ok: and then other examples would be things like not physically being in the same place, interacting with text as opposed to with body language, being required to communicate with very limited amounts of text, whether it be because of a platform-imposed limit or a limit imposed by your opponent(?) - "i'm not reading all that", etc etc

when it comes to online arguments, they suck, even as an onlooker (which i am 99.9% of the time). people aren't getting in arguments to learn something or expand their perspective, they're looking to win.
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