Is there a mobile-friendly webring?

[arcus]

So is the price of a smartphone. I really don't think someone deciding they want to participate in the indie web in this way and saving for a little while to get a laptop if that's needed is a big deal. *shrug* Agree to disagree I guess.

Not everyone with a smartphone has paid for one up front, and might have gotten one second hand as a gift. There's plans in the USA that go for $30 USD a month that include a smartphone with internet and credit. $200+ USD for a machine that cannot make calls, nor comes with internet is a risky purchase, especially for the sole purpose of making a few websites look better.

Not everyone can save up either: With Supplemental Security Income (SSI) in the United States, the savings limit is $2,000 USD per person, including their personal items in some states. If one goes over that, all their payments get cut off. This is a huge issue for anyone that needs to have a bit left over for medical emergencies and similar. Even getting gifted a laptop in that situation is risky, since that's $200 USD off how much they can save up.

I have no idea what your experiences are like, and I'm not trying to argue with you here. I'm posting this because there's many misconceptions about poverty online that are impossible to understand without talking to someone that has been homeless or close to it.

Edit: This post is kinda badly worded and that last line wasn't meant to come off rude. There's misconceptions about the cost of mobile phones, and how people can afford them while being poor but not other things. I wanted to clear that up since there's common misconceptions surrounding that. Poverty aside, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[ashParadise]

I'm posting this because there's many misconceptions about poverty online that are impossible to understand without talking to someone that has been homeless or close to it.

Yes agreed, as someone who is living below the poverty line, if my laptop (which is a 2012 model that I'm still using daily by the way, make your next laptop a thinkpad and buy it for life) died, I'd simply be out of a laptop for probably a really long time. There are ways to get cheap laptops, but they're time- and labor- intensive. And if you're living in poverty, working to try to survive, you might not have the time or energy or resources for "the hunt." Not even to mention how much harder all of the above gets if you have a disability.

Now imagine yourself in those shoes and try justifying a laptop purchase over a smart phone, which we've all been convinced we need to live (and in some cases actually is pretty essential - for example, my city's buses use an app for routes and fare, and we don't have cabs, only rideshare apps. So you either need a vehicle or a smartphone to get around independently.) I mean, I hate my smart phone, but if I needed a new phone or a new laptop, purchasing the laptop instead of the phone would be an objectively irresponsible decision.

Anyway, all of this is to say that you have to meet people where they are. There's a lot of friction to joining the indie web and most people aren't accustomed to that. If you really want your friends to join the indie web, but then you're telling them they need to buy a computer, learn to code, actually LOOK for interesting content instead of having it fed to them by the algorithm... I mean really, that is a lot to ask for what's supposed to be a fun hobby. I think it's much better to find ways for people to "dip their toes" from the comfort of their cell and generate a genuine, innate curiosity and drive to do more from there.

[lildevildog]

Alright so I need to make it clear that I don't believe someone who doesn't know where their next meal is coming from or cannot afford to spare any money at all should shell the money out for a laptop. Only if they can set aside fun money for themselves without sabotaging their life.

But whether or not somebody can afford a laptop or desktop, it would be hard to convince me that the indie web on mobile is anywhere near the experience of a desktop/laptop setup. I think the nature of mobile and being such a zoomed out and condensed version of desktop hurts the indie web experience pretty damn detrimentally. Like I said, I've wanted multiple times to lay in bed and browse the indie web. And in my opinion, every time I've tried it, its just cumbersome to use and unsatisfying to interact with. I just don't think it can be experienced as intended on mobile regardless.

[ValyceNegative]

I had the misfortuneoccasion to read the whole thread via previous RSS messages yesterday, but it was Monday, so I hope I remember everything I wanted to say while the forum was closed xD

For the webring itself, while there's always room for more and I'm sure people will happily join one with this specific subject, I believe the aforementioned Responsive Web Directory ( https://kalechips.net/responsive/index ) already covers this group, as it's implied that a responsive site is at the very least comfortably viewable on all screen and that includes mobile.

For the "smallweb hates mobile" topic: I come from an era in which mobile browsing was based on WAP (psst, did you know Italy was the first country to implement it on its phones? :3c ) and sites had to code a new page from scratch on mobile.example.tld just to be accessed, so now that all we have to write is a media query (or, even lazier, a flex layout and a couple more width/max-width em sizes) I don't see where's the harm in working on mobile compatibility.

However, I do see the general hate for mobile browsing throughout the smallweb movement. We've been discussing so far on why isn't mobile viewing allowed on these sites, but I feel the real question should be, why are some webmasters barring their site to a selected audience? My theory is that, since smallwebs are percieved as true personal sites, their compatibility is a consequence on how many people we want on that platform. There's sites made only for the webmaster's eyes that look good only on their specific resolution... and I feel that's valid too.

Depending on the purpose of the site the audience may change and so is the need for mobile accessibility or not. If a webmaster wants to code a portfolio, gallery, or a series of important info that should reach their customerbase/audience, then they should consider responsitivity. If not... then it means that the site's content wasn't made to be seen by everyone, and low compatibility restricting its access might be an intentional form of protection.

[KiwiMeowo]

Aside from Responsive Web Directory, there is also https://www.beepbird.net/webring/index.html Focus First Webring, which one of the requirements is to be mobile friendly.

So is the price of a smartphone. I really don't think someone deciding they want to participate in the indie web in this way and saving for a little while to get a laptop if that's needed is a big deal. *shrug* Agree to disagree I guess.

Most people need a phone for work, but they dont necessarily need to buy a computer, so buying a computer is more of a luxury.

There’s a lot of websites I see that aren’t mobile friendly, which is honestly a shame since I might be very interested in the art and blogs, but couldn’t read more because the layout is completely broken on my phone, and my laptop is miles away.

However, I do understand why some people struggle or don’t want to make their websites mobile friendly. In many websites I see, people enjoy adding decorations and fancy images, and they often need to tone it down if they want to make space for the tiny phone screens.

While website viewing is feasible on mobile, it is more difficult to build websites on phones, like others had said. When I was still using the Neocities text editor, it feels really wonky and hard to control, and the one in Nekoweb was nearly unusable. And after I started using the Git deploy thing, I had to edit my site from my laptop only. There are also less tools that can assist you if you code on mobile.

[d.eastwood]

I built a mobile friendly webring into my website builder. Maybe it could help some other people.

I've included some screenshots. You can see it down at the bottom where users can skip to previous/next.  clicking the globe brings up a window with the webring hub.  (I also have the option to  add icons to the "dock" -- so when that happens the webring moves to either the left/right side)

[stephan_e_perez]

I'd rather say that if saying that affording a no extra stuff computer is privileged, then affording a smartphone is also privileged.

People can go to a store and buy a basic, no frills laptop for 200-300 dollars

Internet addiction was a thing well before smartphones: This article from 1996 talks about it. The internet being a place you would log in and out of was never a reality for everyone.

$200-$300 (USD?) is a lot for browsing what's supposed to be an inexpensive hobby. That's multiple weeks worth of food for someone that's scraping by.

Having a phone number is required to own and keep a bank account in many countries, along with having an account with major email providers. No bank account = no income at all. No email = no government programmes. Some phones come on plans with credit, making them cheaper than a laptop in the short term.

I agree with OP and others here- more sites should have a responsive design and they don't either because of a lack of motivation or skill, or because of an elitist gate-keeper mentality.

In some countries, $300 is not just a few weeks worth of food, it might be 200+ meals (eating out!!). And @lildevildog makes excellent points. Besides all those reasons to have a phone (and the cheaper possibilities of getting one), phones are just generally very useful for work communication or navigation, so of course it's going to be the priority, whether we like it or not.

ALSO! People who do not yet own a computer might not know what they are missing, so why would they be motivated to? Because some Indie Web Revival person told them they should? Come on. How can they get excited about the independent web if they can't even look at any of your websites without an up-front investment?

And the idea that using the Internet at all on mobile makes it more addictive is absurd. Platforms like Instagram and Tik-Tok are designed with algorithms to keep you doom-scrolling. Looking at personal websites on a phone is not the same as that. And as mentioned, you can be just as addicted to the Internet on your computer - especially if you're a shut-in.

The funny thing is, there are a lot of desktop-only websites that do not need to be such. It wouldn't be that hard to make them mobile-friendly. You could even tell people to turn their phone to landscape position if you really needed to. Look at $DIR>Emptiness for example. This is a very cool website, and it is mobile responsive! Besides some audio-players being partly obscured in mobile view, the bulk of the site is functional and most of the aesthetic is preserved on mobile. And sure, even if the desktop version is better, nothing thereof is lost by the site being accessible to mobile-device users.

Maybe some projects really don't work on desktop - you can offer an alternative UI the way Melon does with this forum. It's better than hanging a big sign on the door that says "GO AWAY, FOOLISH MOBILE USER".

[Noah_S]

Since people keep referring to my comment about phones also being expensive, I'm gonna clarify it.

I stand by that affording a phone is a privilege. I don't think it should be, but it is because they're expensive. They're also necessary to be a part of society which is why they should be affordable for everyone, but they're not. I understand poverty because of disability because I'm disabled and because of that I was allowed an allowance that was less than 50% of the poverty line. This was illegally low, but because of which part of the country I was born in I had to wait for over 2 years to be given a social worker who got it taken care of. There was no affording a phone during that time. And since the popular advice online in these situations is to get a lawyer... With what money? I was dependent on handouts for food. Getting a new phone was as impossible as getting a new computer would've been.

[beebz]

There was no affording a phone during that time. And since the popular advice online in these situations is to get a lawyer... With what money? I was dependent on handouts for food. Getting a new phone was as impossible as getting a new computer would've been.

Ugh I'm so sorry this happened to you and I understand, being disabled and destitute myself. I've been forced to change phones often because I buy them at $100 or so and then after a year or so they just cease to function either the sim card or just bogged down by updates. The last time I was able to rescue one for a time with LineageOS but havent been able to since. Shit is ridiculous. Because not only the price of a phone to begin with, the plans have also been awful.

Sometimes it gets sad seeing well meaning advice that doesnt understand what it means to just not have much options. I hope you are safer now than you were before.