Writing things I dont often see

[Zombiethederg]

So I consider myself a writer, right? (haha) I dont really do much in the way of direct story / novel writing, but I often find myself enjoying writing tropes and often write DnD campaigns in my free time, so I often notice lots of different tropes in writing and like analyzing symbolism. Point being, however, theres some interesting concepts ive thought up over the years that ive almost NEVER seen! So I thought i'd ask here, and see if maybe im just looking in the wrong place, or if these are things never actually tried.

Twist of Character: I call this concept this because I really have found no better name for it. Essentially, a twist of character is when a story reveals something about the protagonist, usually something incredibly negative and awful, such as a murder, crime, or value they've kept hidden that is incredibly immoral, and the story begins to transition to another protagonist as the other characters distance themselves from the original protagonist, or even outright defeat them. Danganronpa V3 does this, but it was really early in the story so it felt like wasted potential to me.

Unreliable Narrator: This trope has a name, but I never see it utilized in the way that I think is interesting. Its usually left vague or up to the reader / viewer if the narrator is unreliable, but what I think would be far more interesting is a narrator who you slowly come to realize is unreliable halfway through the story, rather than at the end. Maybe an example of a detective who's committing the murders he's investigating, only for the 3rd murder to be revealed to be a murder he committed. As the story would continue, you'd realize the first 2 murders were likely ALSO committed by the detective, making for a better reveal.

Unlikeable Protagonist: This ones easier to understand, but an unlikeable / evil protagonist isn't something I see done very often in media. Breaking Bad is a good example, but the show often frames Walter as a meth cooking bad ass who only fails at his goals, and doesn't often focus on the evil megalomaniac he is throughout the show. An example I thought of for an unlikeable protagonist is someone who commits a heinous crime against someone, and then goes on to get off scott free, to which then the victim contracts a group of vigilantes to capture him and kill his family, to which the story focuses on him attempting to escape and get his own sense of justice, despite the crime he committed.

Apocalypse Recovery: This is more of a sub-genre, but stories that fit this trope would be Splatoon, where worlds have recovered from an apocalypse and are not currently in the post-apocalypse state. I wrote my own Apocalypse Recovery campaign, being my campaign Realm of Renovamen, which was set after a Zombie / War Apocalypse caused by a Lich summoning lots of undead. My main complaint is none of these stories ever acknowledge the apocalypse. We rarely ever meet anyone from Splatoon who was involved in the Great Turf War, nor do we never seem to find out anything about humanity other than that they died out. My gripe with this trope is more of a "stories like this exist, but aren't well utilized".

Hopelessness: I'm sorry, I just haven't come across anyone who can write good hopelessness. Whether it be scenarios or characters, as someone who's not had hope in YEARS, your telling me that a character getting a nice pep talk from a friend is just gonna up and recover from that instantly? And that same character wont waver and re-become hopeless later on due to other circumstances?
With hopeless scenarios its even worse. Half-Life 2 has a whole fuckin gaggle of characters choosing to fight a war they haven't won even a little bit, and they only made progress when they got lucky and Gordon Freeman fucking rematerialized. But even once he shows up, no one questions or has any kind of worries about going into horrible and awful situations blindly, no "I don't know. We've never been able to do something like this before", just plain "yep, Gordons here, time for me to go go go!"

Thats about all. If any of you have your own you'd like to share i'd love to hear them!!

[VelvetSoul]

I'm REALLY curious what your opinion on Lobotomy corporation and Library of Ruina would be, they're kind of odd games. They play as Visual Novels with Monster Management Simulation (for Lobotomy corp) or Turn based Card battling (in the case of Library of Ruina) as sort of sub genres you play to advance the plot.

The thing about them is, if I gave you the tropes they use I fear it would spoil an otherwise great story. What I can say is that they both include characters and writing that involves a lot of interesting takes on some of the things you're talking about here in ways I think were done fairly well.

Furthermore the characters in these games have very real mental disabilities, they're not outright told to you; but they're very much there. A great example of what I mean is that in Lobotomy corporation one of the first characters you speak to, Malkuth; very clearly has ADHD. As someone who suffers from ADHD myself I can see it clear as day in how she acts, but I really applaud the game for not outright saying it. These games also include everything from canonically gay characters to plenty of gender non-conforming characters and many of the topics deserve plenty of trigger warnings but are genuinely handled very well. Which is just really cool to see honestly, I don't often get to see characters I can relate to in games like this, especially not without it being the entirety of their character. I do admit I've never really cared for when a writer takes a character and says "their personality is that they have ADHD" or "they are gay, that's the character" because, well no; that's not a personality that doesn't tell me a whole lot about them.

They're horror games before all else, but very little of the horror actually comes from the monsters themselves. It's there, sure; they're monsters and they're meant to be unsettling. However the story behind the major characters and what's going on in the world is the real horror that unfolds and I think the idea of the unreliable narrator being a key feature of both games (along with unlikable protagonists) is a great reason why the horror hits like a bag of bricks being shot out of a cannon at mach 12.

I understand not really vibing with the gameplay of these games, both are unnecessarily difficult at times; though I do feel like it's intentionally designed that way for reasons I wouldn't want to get into since the reasoning could sort of be a spoiler in and of itself. That being said, I think the story alone is worth experiencing and could be easily looked up online or watched via youtube or something if you're interested. After all, I'm not here to necessarily recommend them as games; so much as I'm recommending them to you as stories and writing since that's you know; the topic being discussed here lol. Not to mention experiencing them without having to get your hands on them would save you some time or money.

My biggest reason for recommending these to you is because they touch on nearly, if not every single one of these tropes you've mentioned. All inside 2 games that tell the story of these characters. The studio behind it, Project Moon has gone on to make a mobile gacha game; and unfortunately it doesn't really continue the story of these characters, but it does go into more detail about the world they exist in. That being said Lobotomy Corporation is a direct prequel to Library of Ruina, and the stories being told in these games are fantastic if you're a fan of the tropes you've listed, but want them to be better written and less I guess "trope-y" if that makes sense.

Both games pull a lot from actual real world literature and even a bit of religion but not in a preachy way, by which I mean yes you will be seeing religious symbolism or religious names; but no the game isn't trying to convert you or preach at you, and the core ideas and I guess "morals" the game is trying to convey aren't religious in nature. However I feel like that warning is fair given you know, some people would rather just avoid anything with even religious symbolism and I can respect that even if the religious stuff is fairly minor.

Regardless, I feel like they do a good job of using a good few of these tropes you've spoken of here and even if you may not agree with me on that I'm really curious as to what your thoughts on them are, provided you want to check them out. If not obviously it's just a recommendation so don't worry about it, not like I'm gonna hold any expectations of you.

As a last sort of note here, I will say this; I was really wondering whether or not to say anything about this because I think it might be saying a little too much so I'll make a compromise. There's a trope you mentioned on your list that I think both of these games do really well; but I think that if I tell you which one specifically it is, it could spoil a lot about the game. My compromise is that I'll go ahead and spoiler it here and if you aren't completely sure you want to check it out you can go ahead and check the spoiler and see if that maybe changes your mind. Otherwise if you do want to check them out you can leave this spoiler alone and then maybe come back to it after to see what your thoughts on it are; since I'll admit the trope kind of applies, but not 100% how you have it explained here.

"trope"

Specifically the Twist of Character, both games have this; perhaps not to the exact degree you listed but in a sort of way I feel is kind of unique to them and goes into maybe the "unlikable character" territory. I enjoy the fact that when the horrible immoral negative thing is revealed, you're not given the option to be the hand of justice and focus on a new good protagonist who is going to save the day. Rather you're left to sit with it, to understand that while this new information has become apparent to you, and it changes the way you see this person. You've been working with them this whole time, you were fine with them up until now, you understood what they were doing and why they were doing it... or so you thought. Now you don't know, you're uncertain, but the next day/guest comes along and you're not given the luxury of changing your mind now. You can condemn their actions, but you can't change them. I really enjoy this because to me, it makes a lot of sense; no one is purely good, no one is genuinely purely evil. People have their reasons to do things even if those reasons may be awful. The truth is, even if their reasons don't justify their actions, in their eyes they're right and these actions are merely necessary to reach their goal. You've been working towards that same goal this whole time, are you really going to stop now?

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[ThunderPerfectWitchcraft]

Unreliable Narrator: This trope has a name, but I never see it utilized in the way that I think is interesting. Its usually left vague or up to the reader / viewer if the narrator is unreliable, but what I think would be far more interesting is a narrator who you slowly come to realize is unreliable halfway through the story, rather than at the end. Maybe an example of a detective who's committing the murders he's investigating, only for the 3rd murder to be revealed to be a murder he committed. As the story would continue, you'd realize the first 2 murders were likely ALSO committed by the detective, making for a better reveal.

There is a book that does something very close to this

Spoiler

Agatha Christi: The Murder of Roger Ackroyd

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now, the thing is - such a twist might be regarded by some as "gimmicky" ("It was done before!"). Thus the long term strength of the unreliable narrator lies mostly in the ambiguity. Great examples how to use this are "Rashomon" or "Earthly Powers".

[Zombiethederg]

I'm REALLY curious what your opinion on Lobotomy corporation and Library of Ruina would be

My friend is so very normal about them and recommends them ALL the time to me.. I have Lobotomy Corp installed but I hear its difficult so I havent gone and given it a try yet. After reading the entirety of this post, I may do just that though...

[VelvetSoul]

My friend is so very normal about them and recommends them ALL the time to me.. I have Lobotomy Corp installed but I hear its difficult so I havent gone and given it a try yet. After reading the entirety of this post, I may do just that though...

I heavily recommend using some quality of life mods and unlocking the console via the mod for it; because the difficulty ramps up towards the end in some unnecessary ways. On one hand there is absolutely a reason for the game to play that way but it's ultimately something they went overboard with in my opinion. Being able to quickly skip over some of the gameplay segments via the console commands, or use them as a way to quickly regain your progress won't really ruin the experience at all but will make the game far more tolerable.

[arcus]

I second Lobotomy Corporation. Download the Optimization Mod, the game suffers from memory leaks without it.

Higurashi and Umineko are mystery visual novels that cover a decent number of the concepts you've listed. You'll want to start with Higurashi first. There is an anime adaption, but I highly recomend the visual novel over it. The anime's pacing is very fast, and it doesn't give you time to put the mystery together. It has been too long since I've read Higurashi to give proper content warnings for it. If you know anyone that has played it, please ask them.

If you can deal with gore, drug use, and references to real world discrimination and war crimes: Kamen Rider Black Sun for hopelessness. It has hope, but it's not unrealistically optimistic.

[greyskieshappymind]

I also think that hopelessness isn't really portrayed convincingly. I think plenty of stories suffer from having recurring characters who are easily impressed, but it especially stands out with hopelessness. Cause like there's potential there for the characters and the audience to be uncomfortable and have to try and reckon with something or wondering what would be enough or why it's out of reach.

Bad example, Tokyo Ghoul vol 1 in the final pages the protag is like "I'm half ghoul so I don't belong with ghouls or humans", and then this guy he's just met says "No you belong in both." And it's supposed to be like, super revolutionary.

I can't say I've seen it done "right" because that's subjective, but I have experienced narratives that made me feel like asking for a happy ending would be too much. So don't give up looking.

[fancypengy]

Firstly, this is such an interesting topic! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this-- especially as a relatively new writer I really appreciate this. :]

Unreliable Narrator: This trope has a name, but I never see it utilized in the way that I think is interesting. Its usually left vague or up to the reader / viewer if the narrator is unreliable, but what I think would be far more interesting is a narrator who you slowly come to realize is unreliable halfway through the story, rather than at the end. Maybe an example of a detective who's committing the murders he's investigating, only for the 3rd murder to be revealed to be a murder he committed. As the story would continue, you'd realize the first 2 murders were likely ALSO committed by the detective, making for a better reveal.

I'm considering doing this as part of the novel I'm in the process of outlining right now. At first she's presented more or less as the "Manic pixie dream girl" trope, but as the book progresses her grip on reality lessens and shit kinda hits the fan, and you (hopefully gradually lol) realize she's A) not a reliable narrator and B) a compulsive liar. I'm pretty excited and I realize this does not have much value to add to the conversation but it's exciting to see other people appreciating this trope as I love it too ^~^

Unlikeable Protagonist: This ones easier to understand, but an unlikeable / evil protagonist isn't something I see done very often in media. Breaking Bad is a good example, but the show often frames Walter as a meth cooking bad ass who only fails at his goals, and doesn't often focus on the evil megalomaniac he is throughout the show. An example I thought of for an unlikeable protagonist is someone who commits a heinous crime against someone, and then goes on to get off scott free, to which then the victim contracts a group of vigilantes to capture him and kill his family, to which the story focuses on him attempting to escape and get his own sense of justice, despite the crime he committed.

I definitely think this could be interesting, but my thought is that it would be difficult to pull this off while also having the story be interesting and enjoyable. Most people are looking for some level of relatability and connection to a story, and that usually involves having the main character be redeemable in some way. But me, I love a good fucked up drama;  if the tea is hot enough I can look past all (fictional) ethical quandaries. SO while I suspect this type of story would be, ironically, unpopular, I would still love to hear about it if anybody has read (or written!) a story like this

Hopelessness: I'm sorry, I just haven't come across anyone who can write good hopelessness. Whether it be scenarios or characters, as someone who's not had hope in YEARS, your telling me that a character getting a nice pep talk from a friend is just gonna up and recover from that instantly? And that same character wont waver and re-become hopeless later on due to other circumstances?
With hopeless scenarios its even worse. Half-Life 2 has a whole fuckin gaggle of characters choosing to fight a war they haven't won even a little bit, and they only made progress when they got lucky and Gordon Freeman fucking rematerialized. But even once he shows up, no one questions or has any kind of worries about going into horrible and awful situations blindly, no "I don't know. We've never been able to do something like this before", just plain "yep, Gordons here, time for me to go go go!"

I love a good hopeless story, LOL. Similar to what I was saying about unlikable protagonists, I think this is unpopular because most times people are looking for happy endings and redemption in some way. Life is too bleak to seek out bleakness in fiction, etc. But I agree that it can be satisfying. Tragedies, especially the classics, are often effective portrayals of hopelessness (Death of a Salesman; Hamlet; The Great Gatsby). The other novel I'm working on is going to be a tragedy. Weirdly enough I wrote it when I was 12, lost the manuscript, and just found it a few weeks ago, almost ten years later, and have been inspired to keep it going. :] But I wrote in the first few chapters that the ending was not a happy one, and reading it back that struck me as an unusual creative choice.

It reminds me of conversations I had with my dad and brother growing up, about Star Wars in particular, where my brother and/or I would want to roleplay as the Sith, or otherwise would want the Sith to win, and my dad would be outraged. Obviously now I understand the subtext in Star Wars and I can go "Oh, no, those are Nazis!" but I think there's something to be said there about how maybe kids are more interested in unhappy endings than adults are, and it's something that's either taught out of kids or something that just happens naturally for many people. I dunno! Just something to think about.

[zziz]

funnily enough, a good chunk of these tropes are utilized in the currently ever-growing popular game mouthwashing.. :0 its very well written for the super desolate story that it is. viewing it as an objective piece of media and separating it from the fandom, its very well written for what it's trying to convey!

[clownlesbian]

Maybe an odd suggestion, but Bastard Out of Carolina by Dorothy Allison, as well as perhaps Tiffany Mcdaniel's book On The Savage Side both deal with helplessness. I think for Bastard Out of Carolina is comes from the main character being a child and dealing with issues much much larger than herself. She also reaches out to people and is still unable to get the help she needs. its a sad and hard to read book and I recommend looking into the TW's on storygraph but its a favorite of mine for the reason that it doesn't make any attempts to sugar coat and it still gives the main character a ton of dignity even as she experiences terrible things. Tiffany Mcdaniel's books also deal with people living in poverty. On The Savage Side feels hopeless because you go in knowing a handful of murders are about to occur but you also don't know who it is. It also has a crazy twist that might be up your alley.