Intersex Invisibility

[Misanthropic Monster™]

I recently had a debate with some friends about trans people and sports (that whole debacle) and whilst I have some opinions on that - this thread is not inherently about that - it's more about how intersex people are often overlooked in these debates - or in society generally.

Though I will throw this out there:

is about the participation of intersex athletes in women's sports and interestingly, it states:

Intersex athletes are vulnerable to exclusion from women’s sports, as well as ridicule and invasion of privacy. The Women’s
Sports Foundation believes that women with intersex conditions have the same rights to participation in athletics as all
women. It is also our position that eligibility standards for women’s sports that require an athlete to demonstrate particular
hormone levels promote the policing of gender by medical means, leading to the unwarranted invasions of privacy not only
for intersex athletes, but any athlete whose femininity is questioned. Moreover, any policy that singles out women’s sports
for eligibility based on hormone levels is discriminatory and sends the harmful message that female athletes are uniquely
vulnerable and in need of special protection from the normal, natural variation in size, skill, and athletic ability that exists
among members of either sex.

That is a thought provoking paragraph, because if intersex people are entitled to the same rights as other women in the world of sports then it does make you wonder why there's even a debate for trans women... you have to truly ask yourself, is it about fairness and biology or is it lowkey TERF propaganda, making even trans allies think transphobic thoughts with misinformation.

BUT I DIGRESS, this thread isn't about that debate (as frustrating as it is) it's more about intersex folks and their invisibility in our society. I think I find it most frustrating when dealing with transphobic people because their points are always focusing on their opinions that only two sexes exist and therefore only two genders can exist (when sex and gender are separate) but the issue with that statement is, there are more than two sexes.

Women, men, and non-binary people can all have a range of physical traits, including varying hormone levels, different genitalia, genetic differences, and heaps of other combinations. No physical trait is inherently male or female at all. There’s a lot of variety in the physical traits people can have, and unsurprisingly, the two categories humans have constructed doesn't describe everyone - whether that is 'male and female' or 'man and woman'.

Why are intersex people so 'unknown' in society? Why does everyone assume that the person they're talking to have a certain set of genitals?

I am an intersex person, who is also non-binary as I also do not feel like I fit the two genders assigned to most people at birth. I feel closer to a masculine spirit, so I like he/him pronouns but also like they/them though I do not consider myself a man.

But it always annoys me when people assume my gender based on my voice or some of my physical traits when the genitals I have oppose that notion completely.

Are there any other intersex people on this forum? I know it's quite a personal thing to talk about (I have never publicly stated it before this post) but it would be nice to connect with others who are intersex, I'd be interested to see what gender identities you have and what experiences you've had as an intersex person.

I have sadly had nothing but negative experiences from family, doctors, people in general. It's just been awful. But I know everyone's journey is unique and not inherently negative. 

I wish there was more awareness made in the public eye for intersex folks, it's exhausting whenever I go to my doctor or whenever I have to explain to someone that, no, I don't have the genitals they assume I do, and why are they so fixated on that anyway it's so strange. -_-

[kasperkat]

I'm not intersex myself, only trans masc, but this brings up a HUGE question I've been asking and thank god someone finally addressed it. It feels like in the LGBTQ community, intersex people are often erased or excluded. I hear little to nothing about intersex people even in queer spaces and I find that really odd.

As an intersex person, do you know why this kind of erasure happens? Is it because of the low percentage of intersex people, or society's desire to remove what they may be uncomfortable with, even in "safe spaces"? This is of course if you feel comfortable speaking about your experiences.

I am sorry that you have experienced such hate from other people, and especially within the community. No one deserves that, certainly not someone who cannot help what sets them apart. There needs to be way more intersex visibility and recognition, especially from people who are not intersex.

[Misanthropic Monster™]

I'm not intersex myself, only trans masc, but this brings up a HUGE question I've been asking and thank god someone finally addressed it. It feels like in the LGBTQ community, intersex people are often erased or excluded. I hear little to nothing about intersex people even in queer spaces and I find that really odd.

As an intersex person, do you know why this kind of erasure happens? Is it because of the low percentage of intersex people, or society's desire to remove what they may be uncomfortable with, even in "safe spaces"? This is of course if you feel comfortable speaking about your experiences.

I am sorry that you have experienced such hate from other people, and especially within the community. No one deserves that, certainly not someone who cannot help what sets them apart. There needs to be way more intersex visibility and recognition, especially from people who are not intersex.

I really appreciate your response, thank you!

I honestly wonder the same thing, the I in LGBTQI+ literally stands for intersex and yet as you said, intersex people seem to have some sort of strange erasure towards them.

Intersex people make up about 1.7% of the global population, which is roughly the same as the percentage of people born with orange hair. This means that being intersex is about as common as having ginger hair. Now I don't know about you, but in my lifetime I've met 100's of ginger haired folks so I can only imagine I've also met 100's of other intersex people but never realised.

I appreciate you asking about whether I am ok to talk about some of my experiences, and I totally am especially as you have shown such interest and that is a nice thing :)

Public toilets are always a massive issue for trans and NB folks and that is also a massive issue for an intersex person too but for me the absolute worst part of it is dealing with medical professionals. Don't get me wrong, some people are nice and try to be more understanding but for the most part it's constant mis-gendering, and inaccurate terminologies followed by ignorance. I've had doctors relentlessly try to offer me surgeries they feel would 'resolve' my 'issue' under the assumption I;
1) want to ever procreate
and
2) am in a hetero relationship

Both of those aren't the case - so I don't feel like I have anything that needs 'fixing' I just want to be understood. It also makes you realise how cis-het-normative society is when a doctor doesn't ask you your gender identity or sexuality and just assumes you want a certain type of genitalia and assumes you want to have a baby... So yeah, it makes any sort of medical issue so much worse.

I definitely agree with you though, there needs to be more representation for intersex people in media and general.

[kasperkat]

I really appreciate your response, thank you!

I honestly wonder the same thing, the I in LGBTQI+ literally stands for intersex and yet as you said, intersex people seem to have some sort of strange erasure towards them.

Intersex people make up about 1.7% of the global population, which is roughly the same as the percentage of people born with orange hair. This means that being intersex is about as common as having ginger hair. Now I don't know about you, but in my lifetime I've met 100's of ginger haired folks so I can only imagine I've also met 100's of other intersex people but never realised.

I appreciate you asking about whether I am ok to talk about some of my experiences, and I totally am especially as you have shown such interest and that is a nice thing :)

Public toilets are always a massive issue for trans and NB folks and that is also a massive issue for an intersex person too but for me the absolute worst part of it is dealing with medical professionals. Don't get me wrong, some people are nice and try to be more understanding but for the most part it's constant mis-gendering, and inaccurate terminologies followed by ignorance. I've had doctors relentlessly try to offer me surgeries they feel would 'resolve' my 'issue' under the assumption I;
1) want to ever procreate
and
2) am in a hetero relationship

Both of those aren't the case - so I don't feel like I have anything that needs 'fixing' I just want to be understood. It also makes you realise how cis-het-normative society is when a doctor doesn't ask you your gender identity or sexuality and just assumes you want a certain type of genitalia and assumes you want to have a baby... So yeah, it makes any sort of medical issue so much worse.

I definitely agree with you though, there needs to be more representation for intersex people in media and general.

That's actually really fascinating that it's about the same as people with ginger hair. I'm close with two ginger-haired people and yet I don't know if I've ever met someone who was intersex (granted, I am not in the habit of asking people what genitals or hormones they have). I also feel like I see way more stories and shows that make a point of representing people with ginger hair than intersex. I genuinely do not think I have ever even heard of a movie or show involving an intersex person, and while I don't seek them out, I also do not seek out information about red-haired people and that crosses my path anyway.

It's also a little strange that there's so much representation in mainstream media today for trans, gay, queer, etc. people but next to none for intersex people. I'm happy that minorities are getting some of the limelight but it feels inconsiderate to leave out a single part of the group.

And I get the toilet thing. Like I said, I'm a trans guy and so I understand the bathroom struggle but I cannot imagine the level intersex people are on. It must be so difficult, especially for people who are right in the middle of genital formation, to choose which bathroom to use and then not get persecuted for it either way. And re: the doctor thing, one of the first things that came up when I googled information about intersex people just to make sure I was speaking correctly was the fact that they perform these surgeries on BABIES to alter their bodies. I think it's immoral to perform a surgery on a child that has no real danger to their health by being intersex. It assumes that all people need to fit into the gender binary and the medical field is so poor at understanding that some people transcend that, but to go as far as to remove or alter a child's genitals before they have a chance to understand the person they are feels totally barbaric. Even for adults with the surgeries they push, like you said, there's so much emphasis on being cishet and having children. Even as a trans guy who passes decently, doctors will talk to me like I want to get pregnant and have kids, which is not in my view of my masculinity (though I know it is for some trans men). I have made that abundantly clear, and I can't imagine what it would be like to be intersex and have doctors trying to push you to have surgery to become a person you don't want to become.

I mean, it's like telling someone "hey you're so different we need to change you so you can fit into society" which is totally insane. Like we're not living in the 1800s anymore, let the people who have the bodies make the choices.

[Bede]

I'm intersex myself, and the erasure of intersex people, even from within the LGBT+ community, makes me want to start biting shit.

As an intersex person, do you know why this kind of erasure happens? Is it because of the low percentage of intersex people, or society's desire to remove what they may be uncomfortable with, even in "safe spaces"? This is of course if you feel comfortable speaking about your experiences.

It's as simple as systematic oppression, I'm afraid. As per usual with these sorts of topics, society cannot handle anything outside of the norm, so intersex people are purposefully erased. Intersex children have surgeries preformed on them soon after birth to "normalize" their genitals (but when a trans child wants to have similar surgeries once they are able to comprehend it, suddenly, that's "genital mutilation" and they're "too young". lol. okay.), and, when they're not, they're often given hormones to "normalize" their systems (again, but when trans people want these hormones...). Many people are never told they're intersex, for this reason, and they find out much later in life. I only discovered I was intersex in the past few years.

These extremely normalized practices make it clear that they, plain and simple, don't want for us to exist. They want us "normalized" -- they want our bodies to fit into the neat little boxes they've made, even if it means doing it against our will as children. And then they act like we don't exist, so nobody will think to question the existence of said boxes.

[kasperkat]

I'm intersex myself, and the erasure of intersex people, even from within the LGBT+ community, makes me want to start biting shit.

It's as simple as systematic oppression, I'm afraid. As per usual with these sorts of topics, society cannot handle anything outside of the norm, so intersex people are purposefully erased. Intersex children have surgeries preformed on them soon after birth to "normalize" their genitals (but when a trans child wants to have similar surgeries once they are able to comprehend it, suddenly, that's "genital mutilation" and they're "too young". lol. okay.), and, when they're not, they're often given hormones to "normalize" their systems (again, but when trans people want these hormones...). Many people are never told they're intersex, for this reason, and they find out much later in life. I only discovered I was intersex in the past few years.

These extremely normalized practices make it clear that they, plain and simple, don't want for us to exist. They want us "normalized" -- they want our bodies to fit into the neat little boxes they've made, even if it means doing it against our will as children. And then they act like we don't exist, so nobody will think to question the existence of said boxes.

It feels like all I see is outdated or blatantly odd information on intersex people - I didn't know until recently that I had been using a slur to refer to intersex people. There's zero information on how to appropriately address intersexuality. It's like the only times people want to accept intersex people is when they want it for their own sick amusement. It would be different if it was made to empower intersex people, but everything seems to be made just to drag them down and treat them like some kind of exhibition or exoticism.

It reminds me of something I read a couple years ago about disability. The book ("Misfits" by Rosemarie Garland-Thompson, highly recommend) posited that there are four ways that disability - the wondrous (oh my god!! look at this person with a disability who is able to complete normal tasks!), the exotic (the stuff you see in the old circus photos), the sentimental (wow it's so heartbreaking that these people have to live with a disability), and the realistic (while this sounds better, it can also over-play people with disabilities completing normal tasks, which some report makes them feel infantalized). While I am in NO WAY claiming that intersexuality is a disability or should be treated like it, I feel like it is being treated like a disability by the system and society. Like something that has to be "fixed" or "cured", and the representation aligns with that. The few things I've seen about intersexuality lean towards the exotic and the sentimental, both of which cast a horrible light on this simple percentage of people.

Also the bit about trans people being denied what they're trying to force on intersex people...oof. that's a REALLY good point and I didn't even think about that. genuinely heartbreaking.

[ThunderPerfectWitchcraft]

Intersex people make up about 1.7% of the global population, which is roughly the same as the percentage of people born with orange hair. This means that being intersex is about as common as having ginger hair. Now I don't know about you, but in my lifetime I've met 100's of ginger haired folks so I can only imagine I've also met 100's of other intersex people but never realised.

While I do not intend to downplay a marginalization of intersex people within and outside the LGBT(I) community that surely exists, it might be important to note that the data-base is a bit complicated - see the Prevalence-Section on the Wikipedia. The 1.7% includes people with hormonal shifts who might not always realize that they can be regarded as intersex themself, while the number of people born with ambiguous genitalia seems to be considerably lower (and even these might not always identify as inter, due to the problems already mentioned in this thread). This creates practical problems, as people who identify as intersex and seek to organize and meet each other might be indeed rare, especially areas with thin population (and breaking discriminatory mechanisms becomes even harder).
That being said: While the LGBTI community surely isn't always perfect, I hope (and belief) that you can also almost always find some open, supportive people there; its worth to keep on trying.

[Tommie ΘΔ]

I'm not intersex, but I've always taken interest in this debate. It amazes me how people are so willing to overlook natural biological differences, other than the simple male and female, for an agenda. Especially in cases regarding sports and health. We only teach people about male and female, at least where I'm from, never about the possibility of intersex. It gives people this idea that being intersex is some sort of choice, or is just so rare that it's not worth talking about. In reality, intersex people are just about everywhere but are overlooked because of issues in our own education system.

I truly feel as though a lot of the debates regarding intersex people could be finished if only people were taugh about the intricacies of biology sooner. A lot of that can also be applied to the trans debate, which I am much more familiar with being a trans guy myself, but that's a whole other can of worms.

[Misanthropic Monster™]

I appreciate all the lovely replies to this topic, thank you everyone for replying and also thank you to Bede for sharing you are also intersex to further help with representation within this thread.

  And re: the doctor thing, one of the first things that came up when I googled information about intersex people just to make sure I was speaking correctly was the fact that they perform these surgeries on BABIES to alter their bodies. I think it's immoral to perform a surgery on a child that has no real danger to their health by being intersex. It assumes that all people need to fit into the gender binary and the medical field is so poor at understanding that some people transcend that, but to go as far as to remove or alter a child's genitals before they have a chance to understand the person they are feels totally barbaric. Even for adults with the surgeries they push, like you said, there's so much emphasis on being cishet and having children. Even as a trans guy who passes decently, doctors will talk to me like I want to get pregnant and have kids, which is not in my view of my masculinity (though I know it is for some trans men). I have made that abundantly clear, and I can't imagine what it would be like to be intersex and have doctors trying to push you to have surgery to become a person you don't want to become.

I mean, it's like telling someone "hey you're so different we need to change you so you can fit into society" which is totally insane. Like we're not living in the 1800s anymore, let the people who have the bodies make the choices.

I wanted to reply to this with the point that anti-transgender propaganda uses surgeries on children to bolster the bigotry all the time, yet it's basically forced upon intersex folks, though Bede already made the point beautifully below:

I'm intersex myself, and the erasure of intersex people, even from within the LGBT+ community, makes me want to start biting shit.

It's as simple as systematic oppression, I'm afraid. As per usual with these sorts of topics, society cannot handle anything outside of the norm, so intersex people are purposefully erased. Intersex children have surgeries preformed on them soon after birth to "normalize" their genitals (but when a trans child wants to have similar surgeries once they are able to comprehend it, suddenly, that's "genital mutilation" and they're "too young". lol. okay.), and, when they're not, they're often given hormones to "normalize" their systems (again, but when trans people want these hormones...). Many people are never told they're intersex, for this reason, and they find out much later in life. I only discovered I was intersex in the past few years.

These extremely normalized practices make it clear that they, plain and simple, don't want for us to exist. They want us "normalized" -- they want our bodies to fit into the neat little boxes they've made, even if it means doing it against our will as children. And then they act like we don't exist, so nobody will think to question the existence of said boxes.

I think you're right when you say it's basically systematic oppression - if you consider that (especially back when I was a baby in the '80s) doctors and families did everything they could to 'correct' the 'flaw' surgically or whatever and oftentimes intersex kids would't even realise they were infact intersex, as ThunderPerfectWitchcraft pointed out below.

While I do not intend to downplay a marginalization of intersex people within and outside the LGBT(I) community that surely exists, it might be important to note that the data-base is a bit complicated - see the Prevalence-Section on the Wikipedia. The 1.7% includes people with hormonal shifts who might not always realize that they can be regarded as intersex themself, while the number of people born with ambiguous genitalia seems to be considerably lower (and even these might not always identify as inter, due to the problems already mentioned in this thread). This creates practical problems, as people who identify as intersex and seek to organize and meet each other might be indeed rare, especially areas with thin population (and breaking discriminatory mechanisms becomes even harder).
That being said: While the LGBTI community surely isn't always perfect, I hope (and belief) that you can also almost always find some open, supportive people there; its worth to keep on trying.

I appreciate you adding to this thread with that, thanks - it's really hard to get accurate data on most things, let alone something like this where as you said, most folks don't even know they are intersex and some people might even keep it to themselves their entire lives due to fear of bigotry and ostracizations.



This thread has been really great though. I find the double standards between intersex children and trans children and how adults go about both scenarios very interesting and fascination - as a NB intersex person myself - I've sort of felt things from both angles and it just feels like people make up rules and opinions purely based on whether or not they like a certain group of people. Humans are very odd animals.

[Misanthropic Monster™]

I'm not intersex, but I've always taken interest in this debate. It amazes me how people are so willing to overlook natural biological differences, other than the simple male and female, for an agenda. Especially in cases regarding sports and health. We only teach people about male and female, at least where I'm from, never about the possibility of intersex. It gives people this idea that being intersex is some sort of choice, or is just so rare that it's not worth talking about. In reality, intersex people are just about everywhere but are overlooked because of issues in our own education system.

I truly feel as though a lot of the debates regarding intersex people could be finished if only people were taugh about the intricacies of biology sooner. A lot of that can also be applied to the trans debate, which I am much more familiar with being a trans guy myself, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Oh absolutely! (also sorry I did not reply to you above, your post seems to have come in after I posted mine!)

I definitely think, as part of sexual education in schools, intersexuality should be taught. I also think schools should teach the difference between sex and gender but that is another debate I guess hah.