Social Media is dangerous

[Zusk]

I wonder how much of the retro web revival is actually also built around the same psychological mechanisms, just less obvious. We still live in the same society that rewards all the toxic things after all, and it shapes us.

Like, are we all just kidding ourselves here? Isn't a significant part of our participation in the retro web subconsciously driven by yearning for recognition and belonging to in-groups like yesterweb or melonland, and becoming a well known site/user/person? Isn't one of the reasons we dislike mainstream social media the fact that we don't stand out enough due to the oversaturation of content, and migrate here for the potential of becoming prominent in a niche? I can't tell, I don't trust my own judgement.

And if that's so, is that even something bad and undesirable, or a healthy natural byproduct of being creative, wanting validation, acclaim and approval? Is attention not a good thing? Is perhaps the vilification of attention and validation seeking behaviour the real scourge social media inflicts?

I would argue a part of what you are talking about is just part of the human experience. People yearn for recognition! To be able to speak and have someone else hear your voice.
Over-saturation is a massive problem with the internet as a whole. It terrifies me looking at indie game developers who have invested years of their lives into passion projects that get less then ten reviews on steam, more niche communities - really, tribalism - can help mitigate that feeling of your voice getting lost in the wind.

The drive for recognition is in part due to how that oversaturation has led to a feeling of being lost in a sea of content for some people, the drive for recognition is in part a yearning for real human connection in this space! I don't think its all bad, just a side effect of how we are as humans and what the Internet has become

[wris]

Regular social media and smaller internet communities definitely operate on similar bits of the brain, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that people are kidding themselves by preferring the latter to the former.

The interactions are much deeper in one case than the other, and I think that leads to forming more significant bonds between people much more quickly. Critically, the signal to noise ratio is way higher. When I was more active on Twitter I’d get a lot of valuable stuff from the people I followed, but a whole lot of stuff that I definitely wouldn’t seek out if it weren’t automatically placed in my feed.

The other side of the coin is that when people seek recognition, they’re more likely to do it by producing something that’s worthy of recognition, as opposed to being inflammatory or otherwise non-constructive.

The lizard part of our brain is going to look for rewards. That’s fine! We just need to make sure we’re rewarding it for good behaviour.

[ggnonicon]

I wonder how much of the retro web revival is actually also built around the same psychological mechanisms, just less obvious. We still live in the same society that rewards all the toxic things after all, and it shapes us.

Like, are we all just kidding ourselves here? Isn't a significant part of our participation in the retro web subconsciously driven by yearning for recognition and belonging to in-groups like yesterweb or melonland, and becoming a well known site/user/person? Isn't one of the reasons we dislike mainstream social media the fact that we don't stand out enough due to the oversaturation of content, and migrate here for the potential of becoming prominent in a niche? I can't tell, I don't trust my own judgement.

And if that's so, is that even something bad and undesirable, or a healthy natural byproduct of being creative, wanting validation, acclaim and approval? Is attention not a good thing? Is perhaps the vilification of attention and validation seeking behaviour the real scourge social media inflicts?

Your line of questioning is important to consider, But I'd stray away from the big we's as im sure you dont comprehensively know everyone you're including in using that word!
 I know in my case, i just find social media difficult to encounter and parse thru in a way that feels good to me--its not because im some scorned artist that wishes they were a rising star and had more views or something. In my understanding, something like instagram isnt really trying to center 'making new friends' 'hearing about others experiences' (outside of being a symbol of yourself) 'having fun' in their platform, and it shows in the way it effects me.

Melon land doesnt stick in my brain or feel competitive or show me adverts. Etc.its just some stream of information and people that lets me forget about it and return whenever. I dont know that im specifically trying to make friends, its just a fun place to check when im bored that doesnt feel like its devouring my time or attention.

Im curious--what are your reasons for joining melonland? You seem to have a lot of retroweb knowledge, so im sure something in that is part of it? Do you find yourself trying to replicate your modes of interacting on the big name social medias to melonland?

[ggnonicon]

Ill also add that im in agreement with others in saying that, wanting validation doesnt make you inherently bad, and that i think some of your questions were pointing at that you feel like there is some social media impulses ingrained from usage (i agree generally, hence the me still typing facebook into browser) and that maybe one of those ingrained things is wanting More validation? To which, maybe yes and maybe no, but i dont think that desire is inherently bad at all, and not necessarily anyones fault.
 Wanted to add this bc i felt like i was a lil quick to respond in my first reply.

[Guest]

Your line of questioning is important to consider, But I'd stray away from the big we's as im sure you dont comprehensively know everyone you're including in using that word!

I deliberately phrased it somewhat provocatively to make people question it, and then rip it down in the next paragraph again. Because I am not sure what the right answer is; are we all doing that, or not, by way of being on the retro web? The answer of course is not yes, since as you said I can't include literally everyone in that 'we';

Im curious--what are your reasons for joining melonland? You seem to have a lot of retroweb knowledge, so im sure something in that is part of it? Do you find yourself trying to replicate your modes of interacting on the big name social medias to melonland?

Not particularly in every way. Mainstream social media how I used to use it is centered around getting an opinion out to the world to influence people, or showing off one's life with attempts at viral content, almost like an advertisement of oneself to find friends. It is reputation based. Everything revolves around reputation there: like ratios, comments, being cancelled or loved, friends, followers, numbers, views.

This often leads to unhealthy and toxic habits: obsessing about labels and aesthetics (to get likes/validation for them, and to build a reputation), starting and participating in arguments because you cannot let something stand with this like/dislike ratio or unagreeable comment section (to destroy someone else's reputation). This lead to pretty considerable anxiety issues whenever I would get a notification or saw a thread I could comment in, because I was afraid my reputation would be hurt.

On Melonland, a few of those still hold up since it is still social media. I create some content only to show it off here, for example, because feedback makes me happy. I have recently developed some sort of anxiety again from unread posts here, because I have been in a debate in another thread, and even this reply cost some of my sanity because the anxiety flared up since my mind felt like the 'speak for yourself' thing was the beginning of an argument or an attack on me and an indicator that I was not well liked here. For me, it's a beeping big red warning sign for myself that I am developing the same kind of obsession-about-reputation that I did on social media. It's just slower here since there are less people and the posts are longer, making low effort comebacks and snappy one liner jabs less likely than on, say, Twitter. But even here you have 'reputation': Melon is king since he owns this place, common posters and older profiles will have more gravitas behind their words, and when someone gets into a debate at one place, the person will become 'problematic' in the subconscious of many people and be disregarded more often when it comes to in-group building and even the content they post. That's not the fault of Melonland, but of forums as a whole, and of my own biases and damages than social media obsession did to me in the past.

I think the web furthest from those mechanisms is personal websites themselves. The less visible interactability, the less anxiety and pressure to comment and get into arguments. The less viewer feedback, the less people pleasing and the more authentic it is. You simply don't really feel your reputation until someone reaches out to you personally. And when you really do want to interact, you will write a mail: which is something you will have to do unprompted, and you're less inclined to start arguments, write snarky comments or hate mail with an actual email address. If there are no public comments, there is no reason for many people to troll, because they feed on the general public judging with them, not sending personal mail to someone.

[debleb]

You know, on this topic, there are terminologies on the internet I personally don't care for: "users" and "followers" being two of them. Maybe this does not impact a lot of people's experience with the net, but I have struggled with "follower"/"following" as terms -- never really cared for it, kind of always thought it was...feeding into something sour. I think deviantArt used "watching/watchers", which...maybe is step down from the whole "figurehead" aspect the former terms always brought for me, but I'm not sure what I'd want to substitute the words for anyways. Anyhow, it is a small thing, but I do think it has shaped a bit of modern internet/influencer culture, in some senses!

i actually like the term “user” myself- it helps separate the computer or phone from the real world a bit which is certainly something we need in the modern day. it brings -this is a machine, and i am using it- to the forefront. also it makes me feel cool like it sounds like im a computer hacker in a movie or something

the only traditional social media i use are tumblr and reddit (also discord, if you count it), which both share the common trait of being the less social media-y social medias available today. i like how you can more easily curate what you see on both and compared to other social media reddit is a lot more conductive of actual meaningful interaction, which i think is probably because of the forum-like layout. i still find myself scrolling a bit too much on both though- however since i began using this forum and making my own websites i think it’s decreased a bit. i think social media is just kind of my fallback option when i’m bored or the adhd demons decide i’m not hitting deadlines that week.

i don’t think i have it as bad as many other people do with social media though, i nearly never use my phone for anything other than checking my bank balance (which i wouldn’t be dong anyway if my bank would just let you do it on their website  ) so when i’m not actually sat at my computer, i have no way to get on social media. also, compared to other people my age, i only started using typical social media fairly late so i skipped out on being a twitter or musically addict since ten years old.

[Cobra!]

WISE FROM YOWR GWAVE!

Oh, this topic is available to post in again!

Comparing to email, newsgroups, forums and IRC, I would actually count Discord because it shares many traits with the website equivalents. The way it's set up forces you to engage in the platform, much like the Facebook or Twitter.

Someone pointed out in another forum that with the other formats I mentioned, you can send a message, and then leave and it won't be a big deal. Forums, newsgroups and emails are slow enough that anything you post there will stay for a while, and there's no rush to reply.
With IRC, you don't join a room permanently, you just enter and leave as you please, so it's never taken personally when someone leaves the room.

There's also Matrix, which doesn't have a limit on how many rooms/spaces you can join, so you can enter a room and never feel the need to leave.

With Discord, you're expected to reply to something instantly, and you're limited to how many servers you can join, meaning if someone leaves, people tend to take it personally. Anything you do post tends to be pushed up and forgotten to time before long.

This seems to achieve the same effect as other social media where you always have it open and always feel the need to check it. Combine that with the data collection other social media is known for and I'd say it ticks enough boxes.

[Tiffany]

Social Media can be very dangerous, which is why I don't have social media at all on my iPad either. I stepped back years ago from it but haven't deleted it since many of my fandom communities are there. I don't have those issues there, and I was in the military. Hence, my friends are worldwide, but so are family and friends, and social media is how I keep in contact with people. I like the social media aspect personally because I don't want everyone to have my email or number, and there is an inherent distance there, at least for me. Unfortunately, mom gave her mom my phone number when I would have never given it to her, so there goes my personal boundaries.

For some people, it is best they delete social media as a whole. With others like me, it's good to know your boundaries and when to put yourself on a time out and do self-care in whatever form that is to keep a healthy relationship with yourself and social media. Another issue is the level of hate, bigotry, and advertising you see there and how social media makes these brands humanize themselves to play the game. There will be a time with eventually where this is the only type of commercialization of brands that some people will never see, which is considering (and Sarah Z has a video about this on youtube if you are interested.)

Maybe I am unique in this, but likes and comments aren't the most important thing to me. If it was, all of my fanworks would be on my Ao3 account and not my personal site, where I know I get fewer comments and views. When I make content, it is always lovely to get comments and views, but I make things bc I love to, not for others. I think social media can mess with that, but I believe it is essential to look into yourself and do things for yourself, not for others.

I've always remembered using users interchangeably with members on forums and different communities in the early 2000s. Still, I only thought of the word as an alternative word. This is only my experience in various communities back then, though. I also am okay with the words followers, subscribers, watchers, etc. I really don't see a big difference on terms. While some communities used to use one and now use another but changed how that community works than that bothers me.

I'm about to turn 36 tomorrow (ugh), so the older I got, the more I don't care about things like social media gets, you know what I mean. Sadly that is not the same as someone who got exposed to social media when they were a child or a teen. That experience will be very different than someone like me who got into as basically an adult. So, my relationship with it is different.

I rarely post, react, comment, etc., on Facebook personality (outside of groups). I even when through my timeline and deleted 99% of my old post. My family, besides some, are not on the same wavelength as me on social issues, tarot, politics, veganism, feminism, etc. So, if I post about politics, I will just get hate from them and my small bible belt town. While I've removed the most hateful people, I really don't want to remove all my family. Sadly, if I post that I love tofu, that can also become an issue in my small town. So, I just don't since FB is such an echo chamber that crowd.

The only social media that is hard for me to stop scrolling is TikTok, I love my feed there, but my problem with it is spending too much time.

[debleb]

WISE FROM YOWR GWAVE!

Oh, this topic is available to post in again!

Comparing to email, newsgroups, forums and IRC, I would actually count Discord because it shares many traits with the website equivalents. The way it's set up forces you to engage in the platform, much like the Facebook or Twitter.

Someone pointed out in another forum that with the other formats I mentioned, you can send a message, and then leave and it won't be a big deal. Forums, newsgroups and emails are slow enough that anything you post there will stay for a while, and there's no rush to reply.
With IRC, you don't join a room permanently, you just enter and leave as you please, so it's never taken personally when someone leaves the room.

There's also Matrix, which doesn't have a limit on how many rooms/spaces you can join, so you can enter a room and never feel the need to leave.

With Discord, you're expected to reply to something instantly, and you're limited to how many servers you can join, meaning if someone leaves, people tend to take it personally. Anything you do post tends to be pushed up and forgotten to time before long.

This seems to achieve the same effect as other social media where you always have it open and always feel the need to check it. Combine that with the data collection other social media is known for and I'd say it ticks enough boxes.

hmm yeah i see what you mean! mostly i use discord just to keep up with friends since i never use any messaging app on my phone or anything so it's the best option short of somehow convincing everyone i know to join something like matrix. i have found that i do sometimes get a little obsessive for a lack of a better word with discord, i'll be checking it a lot and stuff. but generally once a server reaches a level of activity beyond "medium sized group of friends" i stop being particularly interested in using it anyway so i think it could be worse cuz it's not like i'm generally being overloaded with stuff to check up on. in that way it's a tad bit like a forum in that you can't just keep scrolling and scrolling forever. at a certain point there's nothing left to look at and you click off. it's slightly less bad than other social medias anyway, i think.

(BTW, i think this is post number 10,000?  )

[Cobra!]

in that way it's a tad bit like a forum in that you can't just keep scrolling and scrolling forever. at a certain point there's nothing left to look at and you click off. it's slightly less bad than other social medias anyway, i think.

Hmm, that's a good point, yeah.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, because Discord is an app I also don't trust, as the company behind it has been in trouble for data privacy violations in the past and their recent activity with Discord suggests they've learned nothing since.

That and I also find myself constantly checking Discord, and I feel like I need to be there so people don't think I'm dead or anything, or I go through FOMO. I feel like if I don't have access to Discord, I feel the same withdrawal that I did when I initial quit traditional social media.

[debleb]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, because Discord is an app I also don't trust, as the company behind it has been in trouble for data privacy violations in the past and their recent activity with Discord suggests they've learned nothing since.

oh yeah, absolutely.

[lulu]

I officially broke up with twitter today. That was a hard one, not because I used it often, or particularly liked it... but because it's my oldest account. I had a MySpace when I made it! Fifteen years ago TODAY, apparently. I do cherish the tweets I made when I was a teenager, and it's cool that I can go back and view those now. I stuck around for a few accounts and to occasionally share stupid thoughts that I planned to read when I'm fifty ;p The final straw for me was so dumb and minuscule.. they replaced the twitter logo with a doge, probably a belated April Fools Day prank. Totally harmless, I can't fully explain why this was it for me? Maybe it just reminded me that it's some billionaires playground now, and even if I block him.. he's everywhere. Everything that I can say about that has been said already. No need to rehash it.

I think the MEDIA in social media is what killed it for me. They used to be called social networking sites!! I loved facebook, back when it was a place for connection (not a really a plug but I talk about it here - specifically the notes feature). When Instagram was a place to see what my friends were up to! MySpace changed my life, I used it to meet other kids and make friends.  Social media became icky and boring to me when shares/retweets the Main Thing. Connections became indirect: Here is a meme I found funny! Here is an opinion I agree with! I've seen neocities referred to as a social media platform, and even Melonland in this thread, but I think that's the distinction.

Thaaaaat said, I've given it some thought and I just don't think using corporate social media it is strictly antithetical to my values. It's a tool. I won't share MYSELF on it, but I plan to keep a twitter account for my Postcards from Utopia project, only because I'm trying to get IRL/non-techy people to contribute. I've contemplated creating an Instagram account for other irl projects. The real world still runs on social media. I used to be part of a pretty active local art and music community, now I have maybe three people who text me and invite me to shows :( I can be a hermit, or I can play the game. I haven't decided which one is more painful.



I have some posts to quote and comments to make, but accidentally wrote a massive wall of text, so I might save that for another post (in due time! I don't want to commit the sin of double posting :p)

[debleb]

I officially broke up with twitter today. That was a hard one, not because I used it often, or particularly liked it... but because it's my oldest account. I had a MySpace when I made it! Fifteen years ago TODAY, apparently. I do cherish the tweets I made when I was a teenager, and it's cool that I can go back and view those now. I stuck around for a few accounts and to occasionally share stupid thoughts that I planned to read when I'm fifty ;p The final straw for me was so dumb and minuscule.. they replaced the twitter logo with a doge, probably a belated April Fools Day prank. Totally harmless, I can't fully explain why this was it for me? Maybe it just reminded me that it's some billionaires playground now, and even if I block him.. he's everywhere. Everything that I can say about that has been said already. No need to rehash it.

I think the MEDIA in social media is what killed it for me. They used to be called social networking sites!! I loved facebook, back when it was a place for connection (not a really a plug but I talk about it here - specifically the notes feature). When Instagram was a place to see what my friends were up to! MySpace changed my life, I used it to meet other kids and make friends.  Social media became icky and boring to me when shares/retweets the Main Thing. Connections became indirect: Here is a meme I found funny! Here is an opinion I agree with! I've seen neocities referred to as a social media platform, and even Melonland in this thread, but I think that's the distinction.

Thaaaaat said, I've given it some thought and I just don't think using corporate social media it is strictly antithetical to my values. It's a tool. I won't share MYSELF on it, but I plan to keep a twitter account for my Postcards from Utopia project, only because I'm trying to get IRL/non-techy people to contribute. I've contemplated creating an Instagram account for other irl projects. The real world still runs on social media. I used to be part of a pretty active local art and music community, now I have maybe three people who text me and invite me to shows :( I can be a hermit, or I can play the game. I haven't decided which one is more painful.



I have some posts to quote and comments to make, but accidentally wrote a massive wall of text, so I might save that for another post (in due time! I don't want to commit the sin of double posting :p)

they changed the logo to a doge to drown out search results for the giant lawsuit elon musk is in for scamming investors with dogecoin.

[drakonic]

Fifteen years ago TODAY, apparently. I do cherish the tweets I made when I was a teenager, and it's cool that I can go back and view those now.

Taking this as an opportunity to remind anyone that would like to preserve their twitter account in case twitter ever gets wiped off the web - Twitter offers a very neat backup tool, it's in settings, under "data and privacy" I think, titled "export your data".
It saves all your retweets, tweets, likes and many other things in a neat browsable html archive. I hate socmed and big tech and all that, but I really appreciate it when they have cool export tools like that. (I may be a bit of a data hoarder)

[Mela]

I really liked reading everyone's thoughts on this topic. Something that I hate about social media that hasn't been mentioned much in this discussion is how fast things become old.

For example, I used to be on Instagram and shared my drawings once in a while. Just one day after I posted something, it's completely forgotten. You have to post regularly to have engagement and if you stop once, it's like you haven't done anything at all. If you want to gain some recognition, you are forced to post constantly, which obviously results in lower quality.

Older posts are also really difficult to find, and you can't even properly search except for tags and usernames. If you want to find someone's first posts, you have to scroll through their entire profile and it can take hours.

On forums like this one, instead, older topics can be found more easily and you can still share you own opinion if you want to, no matter how old the topic is is or how long you've been a member. You aren't penalized if you haven't been active for a while and discussions feel more reasonable and genuine, without all the drama.