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urgellx
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« on: July 11, 2023 @747.16 »

Hello, i'm making this topic to get help evaluating what you can call "soft
internet" drawings, that i could find on places like DeviantArt, Tumblr or
Twitter.
   To put it bluntly, i really don't know what is quality internet
art or not, no standards exist in my mind right now, i can properly find flaws
and qualities to paintings that aren't so codified but, since there's so many
artists out there that do this style (even here, i've found quite a lot in the
"old web" movement or on neocities in general), you can probably better assess
what makes a competant "soft internet" digital painting or what makes a poor
one.

I can still find technical errors from less experienced folks (or just people
that rush things a bit) but i can't find anything to critique style-wise, it's
just so... codified.

I usually throw everything in this style in the "bland commercial" category but
i feel like i should be a little bit more fair to what ends up being a share of
what gets produced on the internet with certain artists reaching levels of
popularity that are quite extraordinary. There should be something other than
being influenced by a cute manga style (but it seems like sometimes it's really
just that).

I could probably post in on the art Mastodon instance that i'm in but i feel like
it might annoy people a bit since putting into question the value that apports
someone that considers himself an artist may be a bit of a line that you should
avoid crossing. But still, i feel like i should ask people that are probably more
knowledgeable about this thing.
   By getting help, i'll probably be able to give people useful critique when
they ask for it instead of saying nothing / saying that they should look like
someone else.

-----
I hope that i can get input from people,
Have a good day, internet person.
-----
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2023 @799.06 »

So if I understand your question; you are asking "what is digital fine art, verses pop art, verses amateur art etc?" this is actually something Iv put a lot of thought into (in fact most major arts institutions are also asking the same question! and I think its a really interesting question that most people are getting wrong).

You seeee in the past: fine art was art that was shown in art galleries, pop art was art that was shown in the streets or in popular media, and amateur art is art that was shown in schools or local markets. So the distinction was essentially reenforced by context (and in fact the scarcity of physical space - more on this in a moment)

The web (and all digital space) has no context; e.g. the NASA website has as much authority and room to grow as my website, or anyones website - the web by its design is an equal platform.

So the simple answer (to me anyway) is that there is no fine art on the web, there is no "good or bad" art, there is no pop art, there is no "soft art". There is only digital art :eyes:

Im not saying that from a social or a egalitarian perspective; Im saying that it is physically impossible for art to have context on the web in the same way its physically impossible to have scarcity on the web. (You'll notice that often the people pushing for "digital fine art" are the same people pushing NFTs - the issue I have with NFTs (artistically anyway) is that they miss the point; digital art is much more exciting when its not trying to force itself to behave like physical art)

So my feeling is that, on the internet, all art is equal, all art is bad, all art is good, and all creation is valid because there is infinite room for infinite duplicates of infinite variations of infinite ideas; when Im faced with infinity, what right do I have to say that anything is better than anything else? :tongue:
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2023 @816.98 »

I would love to see some examples so I know I am thinking of the thing you mean, urgelle.
Do you mean the kind of internet art that glamorizes the web, old or new? Like the webcore aesthetic, or art depicting some old computer OS/old consoles, or some parts of vaporwave art?
Or the kind of art that seems to feature stuff like Sailor Moon, pink, cats, japanese symbols, ruffles, Sanrio characters, large eyes and soft skin, daintyness etc.?
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urgellx
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2023 @892.27 »

The web (and all digital space) has no context; e.g. the NASA website has as much authority and room to grow as my website, or anyones website - the web by its design is an equal platform.

So the simple answer (to me anyway) is that there is no fine art on the web, there is no "good or bad" art, there is no pop art, there is no "soft art". There is only digital art :eyes:

Im not saying that from a social or a egalitarian perspective; Im saying that it is physically impossible for art to have context on the web in the same way its physically impossible to have scarcity on the web. (You'll notice that often the people pushing for "digital fine art" are the same people pushing NFTs - the issue I have with NFTs (artistically anyway) is that they miss the point; digital art is much more exciting when its not trying to force itself to behave like physical art)

So my feeling is that, on the internet, all art is equal, all art is bad, all art is good, and all creation is valid because there is infinite room for infinite duplicates of infinite variations of infinite ideas; when Im faced with infinity, what right do I have to say that anything is better than anything else? :tongue:

I didn't express myself properly, i'm probably still evaluating art in
an outdated way but i don't want to rank art at all or even assign a quality
label to them, i just want to be able
to make an educated judgement for myself and to possibly help the artist if they ask for
feedback, i can do that with a lot of digital art but not a specific style that
i find relatively often. I elaborate below the quote below this text below your quote.

I would love to see some examples so I know I am thinking of the thing you mean, urgelle.
Do you mean the kind of internet art that glamorizes the web, old or new? Like the webcore aesthetic, or art depicting some old computer OS/old consoles, or some parts of vaporwave art?
Or the kind of art that seems to feature stuff like Sailor Moon, pink, cats, japanese symbols, ruffles, Sanrio characters, large eyes and soft skin, daintyness etc.?

It's most likely just a side effect of the Internet and the culture that
a few generations grew up with
but,

to be more precise, it's a style of drawing that, to me, it's from stuff that
looks straight out of a shoujo to bubbly flat cartoon-esque
figures with large lines very expressive faces sometimes with the little cat
mouth. Just like something you'd see for surrealism, you'd recognize it but
you wouldn't always be capable of saying why (at least i couldn't unless i said
some very questionable statements).
   I feel like i can judge for myself the greatness that i attribute
to the art style of a manga / comics / BD / cartoon in a way that is relatively
argumented but with this specific kind of art, i can't.
I don't dislike this "style", i don't even feel indifferent, i just feel
confused. I just... don't know.
   
I don't quite know how to create borders but i feel that it's best represented
with something like Hazbin Hotel (but if it was still) or the current
background of the newgrounds home page for example. I'll just cite a few
examples at random that i've found on newgrounds today :


(the background character more than the foreground one)

I think that they all fit in this un-evaluable thing that is keeping me
perplexed every time i see it. So just like everyone that encounters something
that makes them confused, i ostracize the thing in question !
Maybe i just should just not care about
having a useless reflexion about everything piece of art that i see.


----

Have a good night ! It's late.
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Melooon
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2023 @984.95 »

i'm probably still evaluating art in
an outdated way but i don't want to rank art at all or even assign a quality
label to them, i just want to be able
to make an educated judgement for myself and to possibly help the artist if they ask for
feedback
Oh I see; don't worry my answer prob says more about me than you :ok:

Maybe I'm the wrong person to answer this; but I can give my own analysis if that helps:

What I see based on the links you've posted are:
  • 2D cell art in a comic style
  • Drawn exclusively in a digital paint program
  • Posted on Newgrounds which usually means its retro-outsider themed
  • Dark colours and punky characters
  • Probably inspired by 2000s pop art and album art - e.g. Gorillas album art
  • Possibly even what Id call French graffiti art style (but thats a made up term)
  • It gives me a feeling of risky ally vives, but its safe too, its also out of time

Its a fusion of western comic style with some manga influences (both manga and western comics have always been in a feedback loop sharing styles). If I had to guess a goal or objective for this art, its to be cool and punky while still expressing complex dark mood! E.g. its fun pain  :dl:

Apologies if I still totally misunderstand what your asking! But its seems like this art style is having an effect on you; its speaking to you in some way thats making you intrigued by it, maybe even repelled by it? Or possibly both at the same time? That usually means its working and doing what art should do for you  :grin:
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TheFrugalGamer
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2023 @158.41 »

I'm not sure that the art style you linked really has an official name, but especially that last example you linked is one I think of as "Tumblr art," because of its popularity on that platform, and because it shares some similarities with the "Tumblr girl" aesthetic. In fact, that was exactly what came to my mind when I read your first explanation, but I wasn't sure until you linked some examples.

Maybe that could add some clarity? It might help when searching for it.
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2023 @170.02 »

There's an interesting color palette being used in these images I feel. very cool colors, not trying to be accurate to real life colors but rather using color to set a mood or theme. It's very graphical, and definitely influenced by the mix of western/anime influences as well as, IMO, considering Newgrounds' history, I wouldn't doubt this style was derived from the specific limitations of drawing in Flash/Animate.
I wouldn't know what to call it, but I am interested in categorizing and marking movements in digital art spaces. I feel like, when it comes to digital art, styles and movements very much derive from both program limitations and certain websites or sub populations of website cultures.

It does have a sort of punk/alt vibe to it, but not overtly so. Brushing with counterculture, but it doesn't go fully into it.
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2023 @561.54 »

The way i'm responding may be a bit janky but i've replied with what i feel
i could add to the topic. No reply of Icelogist though, i have nothing to add,
i just agree.

Overall, while thinking about it this weird feeling about this art style just
stems from the fact that i feel like the authors should be more out there,
seems like some of it is almost a waste of talent to me.
   I just see people that are probably more naturally talented than me making
stuff just to have fun or to make a living, i just feel like art should be something
more. Our current way of living probably doesn't agree though. Just a child's
mentality clashing with reality. There's still things going towards this
childish ideal, one example that i feel is very good for the art world is the
CNC (in France), really helps ambitious creators make films, and most of the
less popular movies the i like wouldn't have existed without it.

But, you do what you want and if you don't want to be
ultra out there and just do what you like, why should i criticize you for it ?


----
Oh I see; don't worry my answer prob says more about me than you :ok:

Maybe I'm the wrong person to answer this; but I can give my own analysis if that helps:

What I see based on the links you've posted are:
  • 2D cell art in a comic style
  • Drawn exclusively in a digital paint program
  • Posted on Newgrounds which usually means its retro-outsider themed
  • Dark colours and punky characters
  • Probably inspired by 2000s pop art and album art - e.g. Gorillas album art
  • Possibly even what Id call French graffiti art style (but thats a made up term)
  • It gives me a feeling of risky ally vives, but its safe too, its also out of time

Its a fusion of western comic style with some manga influences (both manga and western comics have always been in a feedback loop sharing styles). If I had to guess a goal or objective for this art, its to be cool and punky while still expressing complex dark mood! E.g. its fun pain  :dl:

Apologies if I still totally misunderstand what your asking! But its seems like this art style is having an effect on you; its speaking to you in some way thats making you intrigued by it, maybe even repelled by it? Or possibly both at the same time? That usually means its working and doing what art should do for you  :grin:

You made a few links that i hadn't thought of (especially the Gorillaz
connection).
   It's true that the punk aspect of some of these drawings are still
present even with the more tame, less "in-your-face" way of drawing or adding
colors. From the few points you said and connections you made mixed with the
things that were orbiting aimlessly in my head, i can gather that this art
style is a mix of counter-culture and popular culture elements that is to me,
just a logic next step in the art full of visible, less obtuse references of
the 20th century.

I don't feel like you've misunderstood me since you've provided information
that may help me in making a better judgement on modern art that wears its
influences on its sleeves. Also, it's definitively making an effect on me,
probably partly because i've been very exposed to this kind of art for what
seems to me like a long time, i guess that feeling like some kind of outsider
who doesn't understand something after seeing it so many times rot my brain
a bit.

----
...but especially that last example you linked is one I think of as "Tumblr art," because of its popularity on that platform, and because it shares some similarities with the "Tumblr girl" aesthetic. In fact, that was exactly what came to my mind when I read your first explanation, but I wasn't sure until you linked some examples...

Tumblr was indeed the first place that i thought of when making the original
post. It's truly interesting seeing how this style seems to spread over the
years and making "little" communities everywhere on the web. Little in
quotations (sometimes).

----
There's an interesting color palette being used in these images I feel. very cool colors, not trying to be accurate to real life colors but rather using color to set a mood or theme. It's very graphical, and definitely influenced by the mix of western/anime influences as well as, IMO, considering Newgrounds' history, I wouldn't doubt this style was derived from the specific limitations of drawing in Flash/Animate.
I wouldn't know what to call it, but I am interested in categorizing and marking movements in digital art spaces. I feel like, when it comes to digital art, styles and movements very much derive from both program limitations and certain websites or sub populations of website cultures.

It does have a sort of punk/alt vibe to it, but not overtly so. Brushing with counterculture, but it doesn't go fully into it.


I hadn't thought of the software being used (mostly due to my lack of
experience), but it's an interesting way of explaining why it was made like
this. The light punk feeling may come from the fact that counter-culture became
mixed with the rest, to me some of it :
  • became much more extreme

(you can also find it on digital drawings, probably shouldn't link those
though, they're a bit too graphic)

  • became very tame and mixed with popular things of the era

(just like with this style)

  • stayed the same of went in its own direction
(i can especially find it in music or even the nostalgia for a free-er web if
you can call that counter-culture : wanting to get back shock sites, etc)
   I feel like there probably exists very good essays about normalizing
a more punk attitude and absorbing counter-culture to make it more lambda.
I just have been to lazy to read it.

----

Have a good day !
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2023 @752.55 »

If you're talking about the style that's a mix of western and eastern styles that's commonly seen on Newgrounds, most of the art is inspired by the following:
  • Early to mid 2000s US animation (My Life as a Teenage Robot, The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy, The Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Laboratory, Hi Hi Puffy AmiYumi, etc.)
  • Early to mid 2000s Japanese animation (Lucky Star, Hidamari Sketch, Tokyo Mew Mew, Chobits, K-On!, etc.)
  • Osamu Tezuka and artists inspired by him.
  • Artists inspired by the above, such as Yoh Yoshinari of Studio Trigger (Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt, Little Witch Academia, Cyberpunk: Edgerunners, etc.)

The reason why I'm specifically citing animation, is because animation has leaned towards more simplified styles over the years to save time and effort. Styles that are easy to draw while being unique and not overly simplified are ideal for animation. Since Newgrounds is animation focused and is mainly populated by artists that grew up while the examples I listed were airing, it makes sense that those styles are popular there.

But if you're talking about the minimal detail and shading in general, there's a variety of reasons why that's popular:
  • Less detailed stylised pieces can be used to express a range of ideas while avoiding the negatives that come with realism. Similar to how emoji are simplified and used to express concepts: A brain emoji represents the idea of a brain, without invoking the negative feelings that looking at a photograph of a brain could bring.
  • Just like emoji, simplification can put focus on expressing ideas and expressions, without getting bogged down in the details.
  • One has more freedom with the anatomy, and can bend the rules to how one wants them. There's more room for experimentation. Working on one's own style for anatomy is fun and a great way to ingrain the fundamentals of anatomy.
  • Detailed shading can be very time consuming. Many artists struggle with it, too.
  • It's easier to fix up, and one is less prone to making mistakes as opposed to a detailed or realistic piece.
  • It saves time in general, and it's fun to draw fast.
  • It simply looks good and is fun to draw.

I'll just cite a few
examples at random that i've found on newgrounds today :


(the background character more than the foreground one)

There's a lot more creativity to these pieces than what one can't see at a glance. These styles actually differ quite a lot from each other, from the anatomy rules they follow, to the way they use colour.

one shot mania:
  • Eyes start at some point below the centre of the head, which is commonly used in eastern styles. This is to invoke something called neoteny: Bigger foreheads are common with baby animals, which makes them appear cute.
  • An SD/Chibi style. The head to body ratio is greatly skewed, rounded down, and simplified. SD/Chibi styles are used to look cute, and/or to put focus on the expression or mood of a piece, without getting caught up in the smaller details.
  • The hands have less fingers so they're less detailed (to be more in line with the rest of the style) and easier to draw, while still being expressive.
  • The pointy bits to the side are exaggerated cheekbones, this gives more attention to the curve of the eye, and can help with giving a sense of what direction the figure is facing, especially with thin eyes.
  • Noses are small or not drawn, this is so there's more room to take up on the face, and because noses aren't as important when drawing expressions.
  • Mouths go out of bounds, to exaggerate expressions.
  • The colour palette uses black lines with a saturated red against more muted colours, for a strong contrast.

GROUNDED: Ms. Faic's Diner:
  • The anatomy puts more focus on the legs, by exaggerating the torso to leg ratio. This style of anatomy is popular in the fashion industry and with shoujo manga. Traditionally, this has been used to give a sense of elegance or beauty.
  • Eyes start roughly down from the centre of the face. This is the most popular placement for eyes with eastern styles. The styles of the eyes are more western: Rounded eye shapes and lower eyelashes were popular in US animation from early to mid 2000s.
  • Highlights are used sparingly, but give impression of the texture of the surfaces they're on. The highlights on the hair and skirt on the subject in the foreground represent thin, thread textures. The highlight on the arm of subject in the background gives a smoother, solid texture.
  • The background colours are low contrast, this is to give a stronger sense of distance between the foreground and background, and to harmonise the colours. In real life, the further away something is, the lower the contrast due to the atmosphere. This was likely done by a coloured layer set to a low opacity, or possibly with a layer mode.
  • The colours are mainly clear, saturated colours, with the background colours muted using a single colour.

Attack 12:
  • The eyes start roughly from the centre, and not downwards from the centre, which is more common with western animation styles. It's more realistic, and doesn't stress neoteny. They still stretch downwards, to give more focus to the eyes and to use them to be expressive.
  • The anatomy is more realistic in comparison to the other two pieces, but it still has some exaggerations for expression and effect, such as the drool, the tear, and mouth curving above the nose.
  • The colours with this piece differ greatly from the other two you linked. The artist here is playing with luminosity, to use a bigger range of saturation with colours by working with a lower range of contrast. In short, it doesn't use pure black or white, and instead uses indigo to represent black, and yellow to represent white. This gives the piece a dreamy, surreal atmosphere.

Note that while these are common reasons behind design choices with exaggerated anatomy, it's possible that these artists aren't thinking about their styles in as much detail as this, and are emulating bits and pieces of styles they like, or making decisions with their styles from scratch simply because it's aesthetically pleasing.
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2023 @832.38 »

Thanks a lot for taking the time to give an insightful analysis of the three
pieces and some of the reasons one may use this very expressive yet somewhat
simplified way of drawing cartoon characters. I agree that the pieces are
significantly different from each other, i just grouped them together since
they fit how i saw this way of drawing (being variations, but that may be
reductive). Overall thanks for the replies, got more things to think about
when approaching this kind of piece !
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2023 @853.53 »

If you're talking about the style that's a mix of western and eastern styles that's commonly seen on Newgrounds, most of the art is inspired by the following:
  • Early to mid 2000s US animation (My Life as a Teenage Robot, The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy, The Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Laboratory, Hi Hi Puffy AmiYumi, etc.)
  • Early to mid 2000s Japanese animation (Lucky Star, Hidamari Sketch, Tokyo Mew Mew, Chobits, K-On!, etc.)
  • Osamu Tezuka and artists inspired by him.
  • Artists inspired by the above, such as Yoh Yoshinari of Studio Trigger (Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt, Little Witch Academia, Cyberpunk: Edgerunners, etc.)

The reason why I'm specifically citing animation, is because animation has leaned towards more simplified styles over the years to save time and effort. Styles that are easy to draw while being unique and not overly simplified are ideal for animation. Since Newgrounds is animation focused and is mainly populated by artists that grew up while the examples I listed were airing, it makes sense that those styles are popular there.

But if you're talking about the minimal detail and shading in general, there's a variety of reasons why that's popular:
  • Less detailed stylised pieces can be used to express a range of ideas while avoiding the negatives that come with realism. Similar to how emoji are simplified and used to express concepts: A brain emoji represents the idea of a brain, without invoking the negative feelings that looking at a photograph of a brain could bring.
  • Just like emoji, simplification can put focus on expressing ideas and expressions, without getting bogged down in the details.
  • One has more freedom with the anatomy, and can bend the rules to how one wants them. There's more room for experimentation. Working on one's own style for anatomy is fun and a great way to ingrain the fundamentals of anatomy.
  • Detailed shading can be very time consuming. Many artists struggle with it, too.
  • It's easier to fix up, and one is less prone to making mistakes as opposed to a detailed or realistic piece.
  • It saves time in general, and it's fun to draw fast.
  • It simply looks good and is fun to draw.

There's a lot more creativity to these pieces than what one can't see at a glance. These styles actually differ quite a lot from each other, from the anatomy rules they follow, to the way they use colour.

one shot mania:
  • Eyes start at some point below the centre of the head, which is commonly used in eastern styles. This is to invoke something called neoteny: Bigger foreheads are common with baby animals, which makes them appear cute.
  • An SD/Chibi style. The head to body ratio is greatly skewed, rounded down, and simplified. SD/Chibi styles are used to look cute, and/or to put focus on the expression or mood of a piece, without getting caught up in the smaller details.
  • The hands have less fingers so they're less detailed (to be more in line with the rest of the style) and easier to draw, while still being expressive.
  • The pointy bits to the side are exaggerated cheekbones, this gives more attention to the curve of the eye, and can help with giving a sense of what direction the figure is facing, especially with thin eyes.
  • Noses are small or not drawn, this is so there's more room to take up on the face, and because noses aren't as important when drawing expressions.
  • Mouths go out of bounds, to exaggerate expressions.
  • The colour palette uses black lines with a saturated red against more muted colours, for a strong contrast.

GROUNDED: Ms. Faic's Diner:
  • The anatomy puts more focus on the legs, by exaggerating the torso to leg ratio. This style of anatomy is popular in the fashion industry and with shoujo manga. Traditionally, this has been used to give a sense of elegance or beauty.
  • Eyes start roughly down from the centre of the face. This is the most popular placement for eyes with eastern styles. The styles of the eyes are more western: Rounded eye shapes and lower eyelashes were popular in US animation from early to mid 2000s.
  • Highlights are used sparingly, but give impression of the texture of the surfaces they're on. The highlights on the hair and skirt on the subject in the foreground represent thin, thread textures. The highlight on the arm of subject in the background gives a smoother, solid texture.
  • The background colours are low contrast, this is to give a stronger sense of distance between the foreground and background, and to harmonise the colours. In real life, the further away something is, the lower the contrast due to the atmosphere. This was likely done by a coloured layer set to a low opacity, or possibly with a layer mode.
  • The colours are mainly clear, saturated colours, with the background colours muted using a single colour.

Attack 12:
  • The eyes start roughly from the centre, and not downwards from the centre, which is more common with western animation styles. It's more realistic, and doesn't stress neoteny. They still stretch downwards, to give more focus to the eyes and to use them to be expressive.
  • The anatomy is more realistic in comparison to the other two pieces, but it still has some exaggerations for expression and effect, such as the drool, the tear, and mouth curving above the nose.
  • The colours with this piece differ greatly from the other two you linked. The artist here is playing with luminosity, to use a bigger range of saturation with colours by working with a lower range of contrast. In short, it doesn't use pure black or white, and instead uses indigo to represent black, and yellow to represent white. This gives the piece a dreamy, surreal atmosphere.

Note that while these are common reasons behind design choices with exaggerated anatomy, it's possible that these artists aren't thinking about their styles in as much detail as this, and are emulating bits and pieces of styles they like, or making decisions with their styles from scratch simply because it's aesthetically pleasing.

Hi, just dropping by to say, I really love this art analysis and I would love to read more of it!  :transport: You put it so well into words and point out things that are often overlooked. Do you happen to do this often?

By the way, how would you (general) define a "hard" internet art style?
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2023 @629.48 »

Overall thanks for the replies, got more things to think about
when approaching this kind of piece !

No problem. Another major thing that someone has pointed out before is the software used. Macromedia Flash was what was used for animations on Newgrounds and across the web. It uses vectors instead of rasters: Art that can scale up without any quality loss. The application was limited to solid colours and gradients.

Hi, just dropping by to say, I really love this art analysis and I would love to read more of it!  :transport: You put it so well into words and point out things that are often overlooked. Do you happen to do this often?

Thank you.

Not quite. I take notes while studying art and art styles, but I haven't written anything coherent or public. I've been meaning to make art tutorials for some time, but I am unsure what would be useful or interesting.

By the way, how would you (general) define a "hard" internet art style?

If this is in contrast with the styles posted in this thread: My use of simplified wasn't shorthand for easy, simplification itself can be complex. As for "hard" as in time consuming―both preparation and study wise, anything with the following:

  • Realism and semi-realism: Realism has less room for error since our eyes are more judgemental to how faces look. Minor mistakes can lead to the uncanny valley effect. When it comes to art based off a real person, it can be difficult to stylise a piece while capturing the subject's likeness.
  • Realistic or stylised colour that has good values: There are many factors that effect colours. Light can reflect colours and become filtered when passing through surfaces. Light itself has its own colour properties. When it comes to stylised colours, one needs to have a strong grasp of colour to bend the rules while making it cohesive with more realistic rendering. Artists with cangiante styles come to mind, such as Apterus and Rei.
  • Full backgrounds and perspective heavy pieces: Pieces with backgrounds take extra time to draw, introduce more colour, and require more shading. Tutorials on perspective are generally unintuitive, and rulers can take time to set up. This can be daunting for anyone who simply wants to draw. More complicated perspectives require working with more complicated perspective rulers.
  • Realistic rendering: Value is generally considered one of the harder fundamentals to learn. Not many art tutorials or books go into deep depth with how light works, since you can pick up a lot by observation, and because at a certain point you're studying physics instead. Index of refraction, reflections, caustics, light fall-off, and specular placements, are generally winged by artists, since barely anyone will notice if they're off, let alone comment on it.

It's hard to classify general styles in internet communities as being difficult, since styles formed in specific subcultures can vary in complexity. That said, mecha and fan communities of real people (such as actors and musicians), come to mind: Mecha requires a decent understanding of perspective and light. While drawing real people requires referencing photographs of them, which helps with understanding anatomy and value.
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