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zanarkand
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« on: July 22, 2023 @686.66 »

did anyone see barbie movie yet?? i went last night and i loved it so much  :happy: it was so fun to go on opening night because everyone was wearing pink~!  :loved: the movie was so beautiful and full of amazing fashion and sets, it was truly magical and fantastical! the story and themes were so good, i'm a big doll fan and small time doll collector so i was familiar with the background story of barbie's creation and i thought they did a great job explaining why barbie was so important and influential. ken was SO funny and there were so many great moments discussing gender and honestly masculinity especially was explored in ways i didn't expect. and the soundtrack was amazing too!! i loved the lizzo song and my friends and i went bonkers when charli xcx played XD i can't wait to see it again!
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2023 @690.84 »

That makes me look forward to it even more :smile: I will see it on the 27th!
I initially didn't plan on seeing it at all, but then I saw a headline that said the movie is "forgetting its core audience in favor of trans agenda and gender themes, Christian movie site warns" which was great advertising actually, and changed my mind :tongue:

Edit: I would love if the people who went to see the movie and wore something pink would post their outfit :loved: or maybe the pink part at least!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2023 @673.32 by shevek » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2023 @674.72 »

Barbie was fun! The crowd was very loud and excited, and where that normally would have annoyed me, here it felt like I was directly part of a new pop culture phenomenon. It eventually became a running gag to cheer every time tulips were shown.

Admittedly, I never had anything with Barbie (I didn't own them and I was that typical kid that hated pink), but the plot of Barbie becoming sentinent was intriguing. Gotta say a great aspect of the movie was showing that
Spoiler
life is full of beauty even if it involves aging and getting ugly and anxious. It was a surprisingly humanising plot.
[close]

Other than that, I greatly enjoyed looking at the set design and the dedication by the crew to make everything look on-brand. You don't see that often anymore.
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2023 @754.26 »

As a young male the way men and teenagers were betrayed was a bit insulting. Yes the movie had a lot of humor and was fun to watch, I even got a pink t-shirt to have as I was watching on the big screen. After the movie I felt weird as I related to some of the moments but at the same time also felt down because of how they revolve around "GENDER INEQUALITY IS EVERYWHERE AND YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING TO IT" and "YOU ARE MAKING YOUR MOTHER DEPRESSED BY GROWING UP". I am not exactly sure was the intended message was or if there was even a message in the first place but whatever it was I hope it wasn't anything to do with feminism or even masculism. I am not a guy who treats women like objects, I never would, but I feel like an object in the movie. Is there something wrong I did? If I did I won't do it again. Am I an idiot or is MAN-kind idiots while WOMAN-kind is treated unfairly? Something feels a miss and I don't think I am the only one who feels that way.
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2023 @770.13 »

@Iceologist I think you're mistaking critique of how sexism is perpetuated structurally with critique of sexism on an individual level. Like, of course not every individual man is a sexist, but the society we currently live in is sexist by design in a way that is ingrained in everyone over the generations, including men, which is how the gender binary reinforces itself. Recognizing the "coffin" of this perpetuated system, and which ideas we have internalized about ourselves and others, is how we all emerge from it.

I'm just guessing though, I haven't actually seen Barbie yet so I could be wrong about how it tackles this idea... I just have a lot of thoughts on gender as a social construct lol
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2023 @864.75 »

@wygolvillage I can see your point, the system we live in is sexist and I have been aware of that for a while I even think about it a lot myself, it's just that I was primarily talking about "feelings" I had for the movie. But I would advice you to watch the movie to get the context as I don't want to spoil it. It's just how men are "betrayed", I would be fine if there was at least some benefit of the doubt maybe if we had a few "men" that knew better but the only instance of that was the ones who were for the "feminism" in the second to final act of the movie, but I won't explain because of spoilers.

In short, sexist systems are real, but dumbing down men and smartening women in a movie is still sexist.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2023 @871.74 by Icelogist » Logged



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shevek
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2023 @18.90 »

I just came back from watching the movie :smile:

Opinion:

Spoiler
I think it was alright. It was fun and lighthearted, with some emotional peaks. No big twist, nothing to be really spoiler-spoilered about. The plot is shallow, but in a good-ish way (for me). I think it is carried by the great actors and names, the amazing set and references. Could have flopped otherwise.
I liked that Mattel wasn't afraid to portray themselves as these evil one sided little corporate zombies for the bit.

I previously read some vague opinion pieces online in which the authors critiqued that the movie didn't do much for men. So I was kinda expecting that, but in the end, I didn't get that at all. Things did not turn into real world patriarchy, but they didn't return back to Barbieland as it was before either; instead something egalitarian with somewhat of a vow to treat Kens better and give them more say, and that they need to find themselves outside of just dating women, or in Ken's case, being subservient to one. They need to find themselves outside of the roles that have been created for them in Barbieland as well as real life. It at least tried to capture the danger of misunderstood and repressed men turning to sexism and toxic online spaces as a relief, but I think the reasons were lackluster in the movie. The conclusion you would draw from the movie is that men turn out that way when women won't go on dates with them, and it is their fault. That's not a good message for the real world. I think this could have been done better and likely wasn't the intentional message.

In general the movie was vague to me sometimes on how it wants to be seen and interpreted; I could see that some men might leave this movie thinking that feminism (aka previous Barbieland, to them) oppresses them and we instead need something else, but I could also see the general feminist message in it as well for the women; two opposite sides could leave this movie feeling a bit more justified. Kinda like a "You will see what you wanna see in it" and I usually like movies, especially ones like this, to have a bit of a more bold approach, being decisive etc. because I don't wanna feel like they're trying to pander to everyone at the same time and I am also not a fan of centrist messaging, if applicable.
The movie was also surprisingly cisheteronormative. But I did like the Earring Magic Ken reference ;)

I liked how it made you grateful to be human :blush:
[close]

I feel like an object in the movie.

Pretty sure this is intentional; they are trying to switch the positions so men can feel how objectified, villainized, and infantilized women feel. Now they see themselves as the himbo Ken who is shown as a very one-dimensional character at times. This is how many women feel they are portrayed in media or treated in real life.

/////

In my case I saw maybe 2 people wear something pink! I wish it would've been more :ok: but maybe people didn't dress up for a drive-in cinema because they thought no one else would see it. Well, I dressed up for me.

For anyone who wants to see the outfit

Spoiler
Had my pink jacket on with a pink fuzzy croptop underneath and pink nails.


I originally also planned to wear pink shoes I recently ordered (before I even made the decision to go to the movie) and they were scheduled to be delivered today, but the delivery driver couldn't find the address :<
but those would've been it:


My gf and me were kinda the stereotype of pink and goth lesbian couple.
[close]
« Last Edit: January 07, 2024 @683.65 by shevek » Logged

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zanarkand
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2023 @610.53 »

I just came back from watching the movie :smile:

Opinion:

Spoiler
I think it was alright. It was fun and lighthearted, with some emotional peaks. No big twist, nothing to be really spoiler-spoilered about. The plot is shallow, but in a good-ish way (for me). I think it is carried by the great actors and names, the amazing set and references. Could have flopped otherwise.
I liked that Mattel wasn't afraid to portray themselves as these evil one sided little corporate zombies for the bit.

I previously read some vague opinion pieces online in which the authors critiqued that the movie didn't do much for men. So I was kinda expecting that, but in the end, I didn't get that at all. Things did not turn into real world patriarchy, but they didn't return back to Barbieland as it was before either; instead something egalitarian with somewhat of a vow to treat Kens better and give them more say, and that they need to find themselves outside of just dating women, or in Ken's case, being subservient to one. They need to find themselves outside of the roles that have been created for them in Barbieland as well as real life. It at least tried to capture the danger of misunderstood and repressed men turning to sexism and toxic online spaces as a relief, but I think the reasons were lackluster in the movie. The conclusion you would draw from the movie is that men turn out that way when women won't go on dates with them, and it is their fault. That's not a good message for the real world. I think this could have been done better and likely wasn't the intentional message.

In general the movie was vague to me sometimes on how it wants to be seen and interpreted; I could see that some men might leave this movie thinking that feminism (aka previous Barbieland, to them) oppresses them and we instead need something else, but I could also see the general feminist message in it as well for the women; two opposite sides could leave this movie feeling a bit more justified. Kinda like a "You will see what you wanna see in it" and I usually like movies, especially ones like this, to have a bit of a more bold approach, being decisive etc. because I don't wanna feel like they're trying to pander to everyone at the same time and I am also not a fan of centrist messaging, if applicable.
The movie was also surprisingly cisheteronormative. But I did like the Earring Magic Ken reference ;)

I liked how it made you grateful to be human :blush:
[close]

Pretty sure this is intentional; they are trying to switch the positions so men can feel how objectified, villainized, and infantilized women feel. Now they see themselves as the himbo Ken who is shown as a very one-dimensional character at times. This is how many women feel they are portrayed in media or treated in real life.

/////

In my case I saw maybe 2 people wear something pink! I wish it would've been more :ok: but maybe people didn't dress up for a drive-in cinema because they thought no one else would see it. Well, I dressed up for me.

For anyone who wants to see the outfit

Spoiler
Had my pink jacket on with a pink fuzzy croptop underneath and pink nails.


I originally also planned to wear pink shoes I recently ordered (before I even made the decision to go to the movie) and they were scheduled to be delivered today, but the delivery driver couldn't find the address :<
but those would've been it:


My gf and me were kinda the stereotype of pink and goth lesbian couple.
[close]

i definitely feel more critical of the movie now that some days have passed. i agree the messaging was very muddled, and you are very right that it was a very cishetero normative movie. at a certain point i was even like, ok that's enough ken  :tongue: there were some little winks and nods to queer people but there was no reason they couldn't have had more. also i'm so glad you and your gf dressed up your outfits are amazing <3
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skull-aton
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2023 @173.32 »

I REALLY wanted to like the Barbie movie. Everyone keeps talking about it, and there's so much praise.

... but I didn't like it so much. :(

My thoughts:
Spoiler
The good:
  • The set design was amazing
  • Beautiful costumes  :chef:
  • Soundtrack was omg
  • A discussion about the patriarchy in a big budget film! huzzah!
  • Funny quips and jokes

The Bad
I should specify, I'm looking at this from a lens of a nonbinary person.

It felt like the film was a very Trans exclusionary radical feminist-y.

I think they fumbled a lot with the messages. As a film that critiques gender, it does an awful job at ... critiquing gender.
The patriarchy and toxic masculinity is real and big and powerful. I know that they were trying to be on the nose by flipping the character roles (men are more air headed and silly, because that's how women usually are in man based films). But to me, it felt like almost attacking? I don't know if that is the right word.

It felt like the film was endorsing the gender binary and putting strict lines (women vs men, Barbie vs Ken). At the end we do see them forgiving each other, but it's through a thin veil. I think the part of the film that made me second most mad was the end with Barbie land. They admitted that Kens should have more say, but it should be like how "women treated in the real world, slowly" which... I think is a bad message.
Barbieland is supposed to be an idea. We, ideally, should aim for egalitarianism. If fictional dolls can have a re-do button, they should just stop with the gendered stuff and put an end to the positions of power relating to sex and gender.
Because, lets face it... the Patriarchy is Bad and if there were a Matriarchy, it would be equally as bad. One gender having more control then the other is... awful.

Then the last line of the movie. The one that made me Most Mad.
Being a "real" woman means needing to have a v*gina.
Honestly, they didn't need to add that to the film. Womanhood is way more then sex organs. They could have had her just go to the doctor or something, didn't have to be a gyno.

Take away
I think that it's very powerful for women, but is very cishet normative. If they really wanted to critique gender, then they need to include gender non-conforming and nonbinaries as well, because we are also victims.
[close]

I really wish I could like it though! The aesthetics are right up my alley! I think almost everyone I know likes it! I can't poo on the people that like to too much, because it is a powerful movie.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2023 @242.62 by skull-aton » Logged


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appleAlc
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2023 @261.19 »

My partner and I went recently. I wore a pink dress I'd been trying to find an excuse to wear and I put my hair up in pigtails.
Spoiler
[close]
Sorry for the low quality image.

I quite liked the film!!! I cried more than I thought I would going into it
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shevek
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2023 @444.40 »

Spoiler
Being a "real" woman means needing to have a v*gina.
Honestly, they didn't need to add that to the film. Womanhood is way more then sex organs. They could have had her just go to the doctor or something, didn't have to be a gyno.

Oh wow you're so right. That kinda flew over my head at the end because I just understood it as "oh yeah now she's got genitals" but I didn't question it. That message is really annoying.
It really seems as if hiring a trans actress is all they did in that direction, which is kinda disappointing. I don't feel like the movie will hold up long/age well for other more general reasons (it feels very "now", very already-out-of-touch-in-2-years) but this is gonna be an additional reason for that in my view. It already feels behind the times in this specific topic.

I wonder if they wanted to do more in this regard, but were stopped by Mattel or other reasons; one I could think of is that the plot is so weak that it really is carried by brand recognition, nostalgia and references, so all the sets, Barbies, Kens, their outfits and vehicles etc. need to be real and have existed in the brand for ages. I've seen that they released some sort of gender neutral dolls in 2019, but they don't seem to have been a cultural hit that can be referenced, and they seem very binary still (to me). In a movie that is carried by nostalgia and getting the hints, I guess nonbinary or trans dolls didn't make it because they had no history or nostalgia attached. Having them regardless could have lessened the cultural impact or meme status of the movie. They really went the hardest for the group that grew up as girls and stayed girls and have always been very gender conforming.
[close]

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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2023 @972.03 »

Spoiler
I wonder if they wanted to do more in this regard, but were stopped by Mattel or other reasons; one I could think of is that the plot is so weak that it really is carried by brand recognition, nostalgia and references, so all the sets, Barbies, Kens, their outfits and vehicles etc. need to be real and have existed in the brand for ages. I've seen that they released some sort of gender neutral dolls in 2019, but they don't seem to have been a cultural hit that can be referenced, and they seem very binary still (to me). In a movie that is carried by nostalgia and getting the hints, I guess nonbinary or trans dolls didn't make it because they had no history or nostalgia attached. Having them regardless could have lessened the cultural impact or meme status of the movie. They really went the hardest for the group that grew up as girls and stayed girls and have always been very gender conforming.

It really is disappointing! I feel like Greta Gerwig probably wanted to do much more but got held back by Mattel. In the end, it is a movie also about consumerism. It was cool seeing throw backs to some Barbies/Kens, but I don't think it should be the crux. It is just playing on nostalgia.
It is a bit of a shame that they didn't include the gender neutral line (even as a bit of a nod.) I do think they're good representation for the kiddos. (even if, I agree, they are a bit more binary then what I would like)

However, sorta on the topic of nostalgia, I would also like to point out, the only (and first, if you don't look at Simu's new doll) Asian Ken is a really racially stereotypical Ken. I love Simu Liu, I would literally die for him. I loved his role in the movie (making stereotypical Ken jealous). But it did make it feel like he was just... a token minority? I do love the casting of this! There's a lot of different body types and races. However, it feels a bit ... fake. If the movie is so littered with consumerism and products, why were these not made before? It sorta makes me think.
[close]
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2023 @807.38 »

I saw the Barbie movie a few days ago and have been absolutely going over and over it in my mind, I loved it and thought it was super fun. I think a lot of the critiques of it are a bit unfair - it's one movie, two hours long, based on a children's toy IP. It is not going to be able to touch on every single nuance of gender politics and feminist thought, and it's not obligated to. Joking about the fact that some (many, in fact!) women go to the gynecologist doesn't imply that every woman must have specific genitals, and caricaturing certain aspects of toxic masculinity does not mean the movie's message was Men Are Bad. If you want an in depth discussion of identity, gender, patriarchy, etc. there are some amazing writers out there to check out whose work is not limited in form or function by being a summer blockbuster movie.

Okay...that's out of the way. What I really want to talk about is WEIRD BARBIE.

I absolutely loved Weird Barbie. Not just because I adore Kate McKinnon (and have since her days of online shorts) but because I resonated with her as a character and a concept SO much. I am a cis woman who has never been able to participate fully in femininity - a combination of social challenges, my family of origin, and just personality - and so I have often been treated as an outcast and seen as a threat. Weird Barbie's inability and/or unwillingness to live out standard Barbie-ness means she doesn't fit in, but it also empowers her to be a sort of guide or oracle for others struggling in BarbieLand.

Over time, I have embraced my Weird Barbie-ness and it's been really liberating, even when it is lonely. I remember moments in an office setting when a bunch of other women were talking about the dessert on offer, saying how they shouldn't, they're too fat, they need to go to the gym, they'll feel guilty or bad if they eat it; working themselves in knots to excuse their own desires and using this sort of anxiety to connect socially. And I just unapologetically say that I like sweets, grab a cookie, and eat it without shame. Some women find this really off-putting or even offensive, and they let me know. But others have told me privately that they really appreciate this about me.

I work with children, and I try to always set this kind of example. It's not always easy - in the movie, they do depict how Weird Barbie is judged and avoided - but I think it's really worth it. I know a lot of people really resonated with other aspects of the film, but I haven't seen many people talking about Weird Barbie in this way. I rarely see this part of myself and my life represented in movies, and I just can't get enough. I think I am going to be Weird Barbie for Halloween this year.
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shevek
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2023 @937.70 »

@goldberry34 , true, she was cool! I kinda wish Weird Barbie would have gotten some more exploration, it was super interesting and important to see :smile: I found myself always waiting for them to give some more info on her backstory in more detail, like I was waiting for a reveal or more in-depth flashback.

_____

I recently saw a post that had some interesting and fun questions (many rhetorical I guess, some not) about/for the Barbie movie and its universe that I keep thinking about; I thought I would post some here under a spoiler :ha:

Spoiler
- why does your utopia need a supreme court? is there crime in barbieland? what drives crime if no one experiences need or desire?
- if no one experiences need or desire, why do the barbies have jobs? what does work look like in a world without need?
- if submission can be liberatory for ken, who lived his entire life without power, should submission also be liberatory for women in the real world, where the positions are reversed?
(source, but I am not posting all questions here because I find some miss the mark or are pretty redundant; just wanna give credit)
[close]

A lot of it can simply be answered with "because it's toys" "because it's an old brand catered to little cis girls who play like this" but since they clearly went for making a real world connection visible through Barbie and having them walk around in the real world, it's kinda funny to think about it like this and attempt to fill the Barbieland universe with some logical conclusions based on the hints we have seen. I especially love thinking about crime in Barbieland.
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2023 @68.50 »

I REALLY wanted to like the Barbie movie. Everyone keeps talking about it, and there's so much praise.

... but I didn't like it so much. :(

My thoughts:
Spoiler
The good:
  • The set design was amazing
  • Beautiful costumes  :chef:
  • Soundtrack was omg
  • A discussion about the patriarchy in a big budget film! huzzah!
  • Funny quips and jokes

The Bad
I should specify, I'm looking at this from a lens of a nonbinary person.

It felt like the film was a very Trans exclusionary radical feminist-y.

I think they fumbled a lot with the messages. As a film that critiques gender, it does an awful job at ... critiquing gender.
The patriarchy and toxic masculinity is real and big and powerful. I know that they were trying to be on the nose by flipping the character roles (men are more air headed and silly, because that's how women usually are in man based films). But to me, it felt like almost attacking? I don't know if that is the right word.

It felt like the film was endorsing the gender binary and putting strict lines (women vs men, Barbie vs Ken). At the end we do see them forgiving each other, but it's through a thin veil. I think the part of the film that made me second most mad was the end with Barbie land. They admitted that Kens should have more say, but it should be like how "women treated in the real world, slowly" which... I think is a bad message.
Barbieland is supposed to be an idea. We, ideally, should aim for egalitarianism. If fictional dolls can have a re-do button, they should just stop with the gendered stuff and put an end to the positions of power relating to sex and gender.
Because, lets face it... the Patriarchy is Bad and if there were a Matriarchy, it would be equally as bad. One gender having more control then the other is... awful.

Then the last line of the movie. The one that made me Most Mad.
Being a "real" woman means needing to have a v*gina.
Honestly, they didn't need to add that to the film. Womanhood is way more then sex organs. They could have had her just go to the doctor or something, didn't have to be a gyno.

Take away
I think that it's very powerful for women, but is very cishet normative. If they really wanted to critique gender, then they need to include gender non-conforming and nonbinaries as well, because we are also victims.
[close]

I really wish I could like it though! The aesthetics are right up my alley! I think almost everyone I know likes it! I can't poo on the people that like to too much, because it is a powerful movie.

This is a much better version of my entire review, I guess I am just not a good communicator. I agree with everything that you said, I wish I could like it but the way that it was messaging ruins it. I also never noticed that last line, that's a big ouch.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023 @76.05 by Icelogist » Logged



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by Wobblegong

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