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Author Topic: the ai music discussion  (Read 790 times)
freaksaint
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« on: December 22, 2023 @718.80 »

recently i watched a video by jarvis johnson talking about a horrific (as in visually and sonically horrific) AI songwriter that had gotten attention on twitter. i know it's probably one of the sloppier examples of AI music, but it got me thinking - do people even really want AI music/musicians? so much of this AI BS is just trending crap being pushed on Literally Every App to entice shareholders to invest in the latest feature. here's the thing - as far as i can tell, not a single sane person cares about these features AT ALL. sure, when something makes waves or becomes controversial, people might talk about it for a week, but after that it seems to just fall to the wayside. even if a 'passably human' (whatever that means) AI musician were to come out with some major hit, it would be a novelty, not the expectation for songwriting going forward. people have compared AI music to the popularity of vocaloids - while not necessarily AI driven, there's a similarity in terms of computer-generated voices being used. but vocaloids didn't replace human musicians. they're just a cute and interesting novelty with real, talented people behind the music instead of an algorithm.

i get so annoyed when people talk about AI music as if it's going to totally take over the world and put all musicians out of work. news flash - modern musicians are ALREADY out of work lol. it's rough out here  :tongue: and i like to think humanity still has its crap together enough that we wouldn't all just jump on some stupid technological bandwagon and forget 100s of years of music history in favor of something generated by an algorithm. like, we're not that stupid, right?? i really think we have more personal agency than these silicon valley techies think we do. most people LIKE stuff made by humans. even the most 'impressive' AI art is boring compared to something simplistic that took a real human weeks to create. at this point i don't really care what computers can do or how much they can mimic humans.

what's your take on the AI music conversation? i'm curious to hear other people's perspectives and discuss  :unite:
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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2023 @756.46 »

I'm somewhat into vocal synth technology and I have this input:

Vocaloid and adjacent softwares have already pioneered the idea of ethical vocal replication (either by splicing phonemes like most of Vocaloid, or via machine learning like the newer SynthV ai stuff). All of these voices are created WITH CONSENT by their voice providers, who are paid for the sessions and specifically agreed to lend their voice to the software for people around the world to use.

Vocaloid has existed since 2003 and has its own prominent subculture, and Vocaloid has never replaced non-synthesized singers.

I don't think we have anything to worry about.
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2023 @756.64 »

Definitely have zero interest in fully ai generated music but I did see one video about using ai in synthesizers and stuff (Skip to like 2:27)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2023 @758.19 by wetnoodle » Logged


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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2023 @799.19 »

I'm somewhat into vocal synth technology and I have this input:

Vocaloid and adjacent softwares have already pioneered the idea of ethical vocal replication (either by splicing phonemes like most of Vocaloid, or via machine learning like the newer SynthV ai stuff). All of these voices are created WITH CONSENT by their voice providers, who are paid for the sessions and specifically agreed to lend their voice to the software for people around the world to use.

Vocaloid has existed since 2003 and has its own prominent subculture, and Vocaloid has never replaced non-synthesized singers.

I don't think we have anything to worry about.

As someone who's been deeply entrenched in the Vocaloid fandom for ~7 years and is learning to tune and become a producer themselves, I second this. Vocaloid, SynthV, ACE Studio, and other synthesizers are all shining examples on how AI voices can be done ethically. However, I am worried that, at least in the short term, these AI generated vocals are going to be prefered by producers outside the Vocal Synth scene.

With all vocal synths, there is a learning curve. You have to put in effort to make these vocals sound exactly like you want them to. You'll have to get used to the quirks and limitations of each individual engine and voicebank. Even with AI voice banks you need some level of skill to manipulate these voices. It's more than likely that until they reach the same plug-and-play level of simplicity we're seeing with AI generated voices, they won't be people's first choice.

Edit 2/16/24 - I found this little ramble in my drafts and thought it would be better suited to this discussion than as its own topic:

"Something that gets lost when making AI covers is that you feel like the voice isn't yours. We have this concept in Vocaloid that the voice you use belongs to you - it's your Miku, it's your Teto, it's your Rin and it's your Tianyi. Yes it's not you singing but it's your unique tuning and style adjusting the voice. We make these voices what we want them to be. Even AI tuned vocals can be adjusted to suit your particular style. You can't do that with an AI generated vocal."
« Last Edit: February 16, 2024 @698.18 by kurohaato » Logged


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nixie
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2023 @939.25 »


what's your take on the AI music conversation? i'm curious to hear other people's perspectives and discuss  :unite:


people fear AI more than they should.

people felt the same about many other technologies that used to be new.
including computers, the internet itself, etc, etc. ai is likely to be used alongside humans but never on its own.

on topics of music, as other have mentioned, vocaloid, utaus, etc has existed since 2000s and hasn't stolen jobs of "real" musucians.

also, this aside, im not even anti-ai in general sense. it an amazing technology if its not missused.
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2023 @766.22 »

honestly, i do feel like that people are getting too worked up over this ai stuff. it feels like a lot of the news about ai isnt to actually report what is happening, it feels more like its just supposed to draw investors in, because thats pretty much the only reason why ai is everywhere, its simply just people trying to make more money. i dont feel like ai can really replace music or art because those formats are so connected to people.
I actually spoke to an administrator of Ferrum College who's daughter is affiliated with the US Military, she said that AI was huge and it would change the world, but i feel doubtful that ai will actually change the world. it is concerning that people are so lenient towards something which technically isnt intelligent (the ability to speak does not make you intelligent), and isnt totally new either.
one last note, ive seen so many things said about ai in news articles and debates on youtube like "ai should be a tool, ai is going to end the world, ai is going to fix huge social issues", and 1. why and how would i use ai as a tool, we already have a tool for that and its called "the brain". 2. how in the motherfuck would a neural network that can generate text cause the end of the whole ass world? 3. there are already ways people are trying to fix issues like that, stop trying to shoehorn ai into it.

one thing i think ai would be good for is for storing more human-like things in computers, like patterns humans can recognize or things that humans would notice.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2023 @774.49 by DiffydaDude » Logged







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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2023 @902.96 »

IMO if a real human being didn't put actual work into something that's supposed to be "creative", be it music or visual art or writing, I instantly lose interest. It's no longer borne out of something someone put effort into or had fun with, it's just the newest novelty.
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2023 @51.55 »

Quote from: DiffydaDude
... one last note, ive seen so many things said about ai in news articles and debates on youtube...

if i had a dime
for every single time
a person wrote, in their prime
about a subject for which they had no twine
before a paper they might chime
i'd still have a lot of questions (in rhyme)
and i'd still have very few dimes

it sucks how people - especially on social media sites - feel they need to be authoritatively right all the time, even if they're wrong.
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nixie
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2023 @154.71 »

why and how would i use ai as a tool

why?
as individual you can have fun with it. u can make it do/say/generate many things. i dont see anything wrong with it and will never be against it. new tech excites me, and i cant wait to see advancement of ai tbh


how in the motherfuck would a neural network that can generate text cause the end of the whole ass world?
it can't (yet). its likely to be stopped if it ever goes in that direction

there are already ways people are trying to fix issues like that, stop trying to shoehorn ai into it.
there being other ways, doesn't necesseraly make them easier or better. i feel like ai can be very helpful in many spheres of life, if used responsobly.


i feel like most of you have just read somewhere that AI is bad and how its gonna "steal" people's jobs, and now you all repeat it over and over again.

sometimes i feel like i dont belong in those retro inspired spaces. im not anti-social media, nor anti-ai, nor even anti-crypto. (i am anti nft tho)
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DiffydaDude
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2023 @159.32 »

why?
as individual you can have fun with it. u can make it do/say/generate many things. i dont see anything wrong with it and will never be against it. new tech excites me, and i cant wait to see advancement of ai tbh

it can't (yet). its likely to be stopped if it ever goes in that direction
there being other ways, doesn't necesseraly make them easier or better. i feel like ai can be very helpful in many spheres of life, if used responsobly.


i feel like most of you have just read somewhere that AI is bad and how its gonna "steal" people's jobs, and now you all repeat it over and over again.

sometimes i feel like i dont belong in those retro inspired spaces. im not anti-social media, nor anti-ai, nor even anti-crypto. (i am anti nft tho)

well i mean im just not that big of a fan of ai. im just saying counterpoints against the 3 things ive seen people say the most about ai
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nixie
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2023 @162.23 »

well i mean im just not that big of a fan of ai. im just saying counterpoints against the 3 things ive seen people say the most about ai

well, yeah, you can dislike it and its valid. you know how they say -- different strokes for different folks.

but yeah i dont think its gonna take over the world either lmao but its likely to be useful for important things once the novelty of "generating" music and art wears off. i believe that if its fed, for an example, medical data, maybe itll be able to notice some patters humans haven't yet, which may lead us to discovering new cures for previously uncurable diseases. ai has potential, huge one at that, all we need to hope is that corpos wont abuse it for vile shit

edit, example: https://www.tbsnews.net/tech/japan-scientists-create-worlds-1st-ai-generated-images-using-brain-activity-759226

u can't tell me this isn't fascinating
« Last Edit: December 24, 2023 @812.79 by nixie » Logged
alexela64
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« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2023 @93.78 »

totally not qualified to give my opinion but here it is anyway:
i'm not a huge fan of corps/influencers/etc slapping the label AI on everything for marketing/engagement. I have conflicting views on the use of it though.
My issue with AI music stems from the fact that even from just the name, you can tell that this is just another part of the "AI boom" we've been seeing this year. people want easy proof of concept, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you can definitely tell when an artist is like "look at this AI generated chord progression with AI generated lyrics and vocals. did i mention the intelligence is artificial?"
What sets something like vocaloid apart, imo, is the fact that
a) there is a skill curve and a culture around using the program
b) there is more work involved than just "typing in a prompt" as many current "AI" tools have you do
there is actual learning, pitfalls, challenges and variety there, whereas with most "mainstream" AI tools the only thing that matters is that it is AI generated
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nixie
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« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2023 @109.88 »

look at this AI generated chord progression
most chord progessions are already quite basic.
for an example:
i—III—VII—VI
i—VI—iv
i—VI—VII
AI generated lyrics
if theyre "fixed up" by a human, ure not likely to notice, if they're left as-is, its usually garbage
and vocals
those always sound so creepy

there is a skill curve and a culture around using the program
vocaloid is more like a vst instrument, rather than actual AI
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alexela64
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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2023 @115.28 »

most chord progessions are already quite basic.
for an example:
i—III—VII—VI
i—VI—iv
i—VI—VIIif theyre "fixed up" by a human, ure not likely to notice, if they're left as-is, its usually garbage
those always sound so creepy
vocaloid is more like a vst instrument, rather than actual AI

yeah i agree with you on the chord prog and lyric thing. Also i only brought up vocaloid because other people were discussing it, i know it's not technically AI but it made sense to bring up in the original context of virtual songwriters.
i guess my point was less that people shouldn't use AI for music, and more that i don't enjoy the "spectacle-ization" (is that a word????) of everything having to do with AI
anyone who knows stuff about music knows that AI can be used for it, but for the people just being fed AI gen'd content by the algorithm, the element of it being AI-gen'd adds another layer of interest
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« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2023 @124.36 »

yeah i feel like people will call it ai even if it isnt to gain traction..
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