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Author Topic: Any interest in a guide to getting started with web accessibility?  (Read 1977 times)
Sara Joy
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« on: June 09, 2024 @832.84 »

Hi all :)

First a disclaimer - I believe that these very personal homepages are just that, your homes online. Like real life homes, they won't all be accessible to everyone. You're not providing a public service.

BUT, that being said, I think a lot of you are interested in being more inclusive. You might have done some reading about accessibility, WCAG or the ADA and maybe have ended up a little lost and worried by it. It's really a lot.

I'm considering putting a little something together, aimed at hobbyists rather than developers, with some hints and tips and resources. Would that be useful?

The resources for developers working on big sites that provide services or are part of a business can be quite shaming, as yes, they often need to do better. But doing this as a hobby is different, and I'd like to help open up and simplify the world of web accessibility without making anyone feel worried or ashamed.

Would love to hear any thoughts on the matter, or resources that you've already found helpful.

Thank yooouuuuu!
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Melooon
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2024 @868.18 »

There's a really beautiful article someone shared with me called Against Access that puts into words a lot of what Iv felt about the accessibility discussions Iv seen but never been able to properly express.

I definitely recommend reading it but what it ultimately boils down to is; why should blind people be satisfied with a diminished version of what sighted people get when they experience something? Why should they not get something just as good, made for them and engaging with their experience of life?

Take this forum for example; would describing its theme to someone actually do it justice? Can you describe the subtle uncanny yet soft atmosphere of the purple goo between the gold trim title boxes? The stars and rain and flower pellet sky? A blind person would need to experience all of that to truly feel this forum in the way they deserve to feel the world.

As they say in the article, its helpful to have all the little things that empower disabled people (and I think your idea is kind, and it falls into that helpful category so I don't mean to dismiss it at all). However I think what they would really love is a web that they can actually feel and hear and touch in some way; a web experience that's actually built for them, by them, with their world coming first - and if you can empower them to do that, it would mean so much (And I know its not really practical for you to create an entire other web verses a small guide! But you did ask  :ok: )

Its actually the perfect thing for a homepage-like culture to create, because homepages are so much about what we feel; but Id like it to be better than just a tacked on extra to a sighted persons web, and I think it can be better and I hope it happens! It can be a place that sighted people are jealous they cant fully experience! :wizard:

EDIT: I suppose one small practical step would be to ask any blind people you know if they actually want access to your homepage, knowing the limitations that come with that; maybe they do, but maybe they don’t!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024 @912.36 by Melooon » Logged


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Sara Joy
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2024 @908.77 »

Gah. Thank you so much for all that, a way better response than I could ever have asked for! And I agree, ideally a delightful website will delight everyone in some way, not just be passable and 'not too boring' to those who can't see it. And indeed, why should they care at all?

I loved this bit about writing non-photo, tactile bios from the article:
Quote
And here is Hayley Broadway, a DeafBlind researcher currently working with DeafBlind children on Protactile language acquisition: “Wears fashionable, textured attire. Wiggles her fingers on you when she is deep in thought. When you talk to her, you feel a steady stream of taps and squeezes. Sometimes, when she is really excited, she slaps you. Engage at your own risk.”

Actually interesting you should ask, I'm online-friends with and now a semi-colleague of (he's now on my company's books as our accessibility consultant) a blind developer, and again online I am acquainted with a deafblind engineer (who I ought to email again). I haven't asked them if they like my site or not, or even care for visiting it, haha! You've got me there.

I did ask :) but yes I'd be starting smaller, probably. There are some great resources out there and I don't want to just add to the noise, but I also love seeing the smol/indie/revival web (some of them join up to my CSS webring and I love it), and I want to continue the work of "shifting left" the conversation (i.e. bringing it earlier into the processes) on accessibility, so it's not a big surprise later when some of these hobbyists get popular or maybe become developers themselves.

Open to suggestions - at this point I'm not sure I'm the one to get the blind and deafblind communities more into coding for the web, but gosh wouldn't that be cool.

Edit: My company's app does actually have a whimsical audio board thing just for fun on its first page once people sign up and log in, and it was unusual enough for the consultant to remark upon. There should be more of this - and a stretch goal for us is including more of this whimsy in non-visual ways!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024 @913.84 by Sara Joy » Logged
Melooon
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2024 @922.99 »

Quote
I loved this bit about writing non-photo,
Its super exciting that article, it makes me wanna know this other world of experience!

One idea; sometimes I show my dad my website, hes not disabled in any way, but he is older and non-web-savy so his experience of my website is actually very compromised in the sense that he cant fully comprehend what hes seeing on the screen - for example he sees a navbar, but he does not understand its boundaries, its purpose or its persistence.

Something thing he's often asking me to do is include narrations with my sites; essentially an audio track that reads out and talks about the page like a little audiobook (I think its a good idea and Id like to do it someday!)

I think if I was blind and I wanted to read my friends latest blog post on their site, it would really mean a lot to me to have them read it to me, instead of having to use an awkward screen reader for example. I suppose in an ideal world Id love it if they called me on the phone and told me about their day directly; but perhaps having simple narrations could be a step in the right direction and also add to the experience of a site for everyone  :skull:
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Sara Joy
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2024 @947.34 »

Mmm, and that's a lovely idea too. If you've looked up anything by Tink (https://tink.uk/) she has some great ideas around CSS Speech.

The only thing about adding extra audio to a site for users who actually use a screen reader on their computer - some of them have it reading at 700-800 words per minute! - switching it off to then listen to what someone else has decided their article should sound like could be quite annoying.

Definitely makes sense for people like your dad, and even I sometimes use my browser's reader mode and make it read an article aloud while I do something else, like wash dishes. Oh wait actually I think this guy Keenan (https://gkeenan.co/avgb/) is doing readings of his blog posts at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-very-good-audio-blog/id1724269695 - though it'd be cool to have them together on the same page.

Lol this has gone a little wider than asking if people might like an a11y introduction 😅
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2024 @951.33 »

yes please!!!!!! i would really really like something like this!!!!!!!!!!  :mark:  :mark:  :mark: i have had a really hard time finding resources about actually implementing accessibility measures for blind users even when i've gone looking!! i've seen things saying "you should use semantic html" but have not been able to wrap my head around how to use it, what it does, why it's preferable to regular html, or how screenreader programs are interacting with it, for example. which is frustrating, becausse if i don't know what something actually does then i don't know how to implement it properly.

also how/if/under what circumstances screenreader users can skip sections, what elements a screenreader might parse in a way that's unexpected or unintuitive to a sighted user, what might cause a screenreader to glitch out or be unable to navigate a page at all........ common errors... etc.

and i have been frustrated that the few resources i've found tend to assume the reader is building a brand/business/educational website and not for fun!! for one thing there's an assumption that some of the content is "the important stuff" and everything else is "decorative" . so they don't really have information on what to do with material that is entirely for fun, relies on sight to be enjoyed, things whose only purpose is to create a "vibe" or a "mood", or things that simply Look Funny. (this is certainly more subjective and opinions on what to do with it vary, but it'd be nice to have at least a general idea of whether there is a Generally Accepted Practice or whatever)
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2024 @981.38 »

ome of them have it reading at 700-800 words per minute! - switching it off to then listen to what someone else has decided their article should sound like could be quite annoying.
That's the contrast of a homepage though - homepages are annoying; particularly if you wanna read them fast :tongue: I wasn't suggesting creating a direct narration of the pages text, but an actual aural landscape, that describes the feeling of the page in a way that's just as colorful as its visuals - with sound effects and music and all sorts. If that's not slow then it kinda misses the point!
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Sara Joy
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2024 @257.07 »

yes please!!!!!! i would really really like something like this!!!!!!!!!!  :mark:  :mark:  :mark:

Thank you so much! Everything you wrote is spot on and gives me a great set of starting points to cover 🙏

That's the contrast of a homepage though - homepages are annoying; particularly if you wanna read them fast :tongue:

You're right. I feel like what I'm considering doing here will need some going back to the drawing board of what accessibility means, when it's not for a business or service.

Which is such a cool thing! I'll get talking with people who actually use assistive tech...
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2024 @512.05 »


he is older and non-web-savy

Something thing he's often asking me to do is include narrations

Narration is an interesting idea for another way of bringing the experience of a page across. But then there's the navigation too... I'm thinking a lot about accessibility for elders now that more and more of essential services and things happen online.

My mum is also elderly and not web savy and I often have to help her with various things. It just surprises me all the time how difficult it is for her to find things on a page. The apps and websites are 'well-designed' but she just can't find what she is looking for in the myriad of text and buttons on the page and it's like she goes into panic.

Just now actually I helped her with playing the radio online and I said 'now just press play' and she just couldn't find the play icon in the control panel... The narration here would be something like 'If you want to listen to the radio, press that icon that looks like an arrow pointing to the right!'  :happy:
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2024 @514.78 »

Absolutely. There has been a demand for one for awhile.

You can do a lot with a guide specifically towards personal web pages.

Alt text is underrated, it can be used to show what's personally important to someone in an image. It's fun reading alt text when I use a text browser or lurk the Fediverse, and someone writes an interesting description.

It's suggested to write concise alt text for convenience, but with personal sites, that doesn't have to apply. There's so much that can be done with it.

Which is such a cool thing! I'll get talking with people who actually use assistive tech...

You should use the a11y and Accessibility tags on Mastodon ask for advice. The community on Fediverse is very friendly and helpful when it comes to accessibility.



My favourite resources:
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Sara Joy
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2024 @678.56 »

I'm thinking a lot about accessibility for elders now that more and more of essential services and things happen online.

Yeah it's terrible for that older generation, that has seen SO MUCH change in their lives that's already hard to comprehend, and now suddenly everything is online and not built with them in mind and it sucks.

I don't think my mum is the right audience for all of our personal websites lol, but having them in mind is no bad thing!

Absolutely. There has been a demand for one for awhile.

~

It's suggested to write concise alt text for convenience, but with personal sites, that doesn't have to apply. There's so much that can be done with it.

You should use the a11y and Accessibility tags on Mastodon ask for advice. The community on Fediverse is very friendly and helpful when it comes to accessibility.

Thank you so much for the links! Yes I'm pretty in deep with the masto a11y crowd already, bothering them with my many questions 😆
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2024 @751.52 »

i would like to see more discussion about web-accessibility that isn't focused solely on screen-readers.

i'm grateful for the existing resources for better accommodating screen-readers, it's something i struggle with even when i'm actively designing with screen-readers in mind (in part but not entirely because of so many conflicting guidelines).

but, i find the focus on screenreaders in accessibility discussion online frustrating. screenreaders are not the only accessibility tool used by web users, and in fact accommodating accessibility tools is not the only task a webdeveloper needs to do to make their site accessible.

a lot of websites (including the self-made web) are inaccessible to users whose needs go beyond screenreaders, even if they accommodate screenreaders very well. it's usually out of ignorance (at least on smaller sites; on the corporate ones it sometimes is deliberate and wilful), but to me this terrible UX sometimes feels hostile.

so while there are a lot of guides for things like correctly writing alt-text, or using descriptive hyperlinks instead of just typing "click here", i'd really like to see more about making your actual website better constructed from the base.



i can't provide any real guides, except the web is naturally responsive, stop breaking it with your css, because i don't know if there are any "official" guides on this kind of accessible webdev, so instead i'll try to explain what i mean by "better constructed from the base":

all text should be inside html tags that were made for text, like span or p or h1. do not leave text loose inside a div with nothing to delineate it from the rest of the html. first, because some browsers will interperet the whitespace within that text as whitespace within the html, and second, because it interferes with many browser extensions that make text easier to read.

avoid absolute or fixed or sticky-positioned elements. they WILL obscure the important part of the page for some users, or will in some other manner get in the way or cause problems (i use caret browsing, absolute positioning is my greatest enemy). even floats, negative margins, and relative positioning can cause problems if used in a manner that functionally mirrors absolute positioning. and yes i'm also guilty of doing these things, but i try to avoid them where possible, and to be as unobtrusive as possible when i do.

avoid fixed heights or widths at all, in general. double so if these elements contain text. any browser that displays a font (either face or size) not the exact one the developer sees WILL have text either overflowing or cut off, and those parts of the page will be unreadable.

in fact, do not assume the size anything displays as on your screen is the same as it will be on others. set your browser's minimum font size to 20px, and set it to ignore site-defined fonts. increase your desktop resolution to double native size and then see how your site looks. shrink your browser down to the smallest box you can make it and then see how your site looks. look at your site on your nan's computer. on your niece's phone.

you can't perfectly accommodate every possible screen size and font, that's impossible. but your site should scroll correctly on all resolutions, with no elements simply cut off and entirely inaccessible. if things go missing on certain resolutions, remove all css from the missing element and then see how it displays. work your way back up to how you want it to be, without making it disappear again.



anything the user can click on (hyperlinks, buttons, checkboxes, et cetera) should be a minimum of 30px or 1em square, whichever of those numbers is the bigger one. also, anything the user can click on should be clearly and visibly different from the rest of the page, in a manner that is consistent with all other clickable elements on your site. in essence, it should be immediately apparent how your site styles clickable elements, and that should be entirely consistent throughout.



not everyone lives in a city. some people have really shitty internet. worse than you think "really shitty" means. just absurdly, annoyingly slow. never use an image that is larger than its largest possible display size; and if at all possible, not even that big. also, avoid large images in general. when i say "large" i don't just mean dimensions in pixels (though those too) but data. i recently visited a page with an absurdly huge gif, which i watched load slowly frame-by-frame as a slideshow. it was used as a background inside an element that had a max-width of 1000px, yet the gif's own width was nearly 2k. it also had an unnecessary number of frames. it took more than five minutes to load. i told the creator of the page, who cut the framecount and dimensions in half. the shrunken gif took less than one minute to load.



then there's javascript.

every website should be as functional as possible without javascript. this is a genuine accessibility need that i rarely see acknowledged. frankly, i think it should also be considered basic security, but if no-one will view it that way then it should at least be viewed through accessibility.

i have multiple disabilities that interact horribly with javascript. i hate it, and i wish it had never become as ubiquitous as it is. it makes using the web exhausting, and honestly i think it's a big part of my distaste for a lot of modern sites, and my preference for older ones (or new sites running on old software, from before the js-ification of the web).

i've complained about this before, but i am tired of sites using js for things they do not need it for; including, sometimes, loading the entire contents of the webpage (such that browsers lacking js see a placeholder "turn on js" and nothing else). nothing that is text should ever need javascript. i should never need to enable js in order to read a forum thread, or a blog, or a news article. i've seen this on multiple sites, many of which inexplicably added this barrier years into the site's existence.

i should also not need js to view a plain image. js-lazy-loading is an absolute plague and i have a userscript that gets longer every year as i find new and novel ways of doing data-src="". the image url is right there in the html! it should not be easier for me to open devtools and view the image that way. it should just be present on the page. browsers HAVE a lazy-load feature! you don't need javascript for that!

i think part of this js-ification, especially of the self-made web, is that if you look on stackoverflow how to do anything remotely complicated or dynamic, the top answer is usually "use this purpose-made js plugin that does this exact thing". and a lot of webdevs will look no further, copypaste the plugin, and their thing works.

when you can probably do it with nothing but html and maybe css, and make your page infinitely more accessible.

i understand and accept using js for things that really do need it, like embedding a game or chatroom in your webpage (though slower, non-instant chatrooms can be done with php if you feel yours won't move fast enough for js to be a necessity). my accessibility frustration lies in sites that use js for stuff that should be html.



as regards accessibility for elders: honestly, i think a lot of what i've outlined above will help with that. a lot of websites feel like they're built to be actively hostile to non-standard web users (like me, who browses by keyboard and without javascript and with a huge font size), even if that wasn't the intent.

aside: it's also worth considering that web users who have different habits do so for a reason and not because they don't understand the tools at their disposal.

the most common example i come across of "old people web use" is clicking and dragging the scrollbar with the mouse cursor rather than using the mouse-wheel. the small movements needed by the mouse wheel can be painful for anyone with inflammation in their hands, such as might be cause by arthritis, tendonitis, or carpal tunnel syndrome.

I don't think my mum is the right audience for all of our personal websites lol, but having them in mind is no bad thing!

your mum isn't, but i bet mine is!
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Sara Joy
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2024 @865.98 »

i would like to see more discussion about web-accessibility that isn't focused solely on screen-readers.

Thank you for that reminder - and thank you for the whole post. I agree that responsiveness and performance (i.e. not making users download swathes of JS for no reason) go hand in hand with accessibility.

I'll be starting this guide with the simpler stuff, and it'll hopefully grow bit by bit as I find time between work and kids! But I'm looking forward to getting things down and hopefully more in reach of hobbyists.
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2024 @867.25 »

There's a really beautiful article someone shared with me called Against Access that puts into words a lot of what Iv felt about the accessibility discussions Iv seen but never been able to properly express.

I definitely recommend reading it but what it ultimately boils down to is; why should blind people be satisfied with a diminished version of what sighted people get when they experience something? Why should they not get something just as good, made for them and engaging with their experience of life?

Take this forum for example; would describing its theme to someone actually do it justice? Can you describe the subtle uncanny yet soft atmosphere of the purple goo between the gold trim title boxes? The stars and rain and flower pellet sky? A blind person would need to experience all of that to truly feel this forum in the way they deserve to feel the world.

As they say in the article, its helpful to have all the little things that empower disabled people (and I think your idea is kind, and it falls into that helpful category so I don't mean to dismiss it at all). However I think what they would really love is a web that they can actually feel and hear and touch in some way; a web experience that's actually built for them, by them, with their world coming first - and if you can empower them to do that, it would mean so much (And I know its not really practical for you to create an entire other web verses a small guide! But you did ask  :ok: )

Its actually the perfect thing for a homepage-like culture to create, because homepages are so much about what we feel; but Id like it to be better than just a tacked on extra to a sighted persons web, and I think it can be better and I hope it happens! It can be a place that sighted people are jealous they cant fully experience! :wizard:

EDIT: I suppose one small practical step would be to ask any blind people you know if they actually want access to your homepage, knowing the limitations that come with that; maybe they do, but maybe they don’t!

wanted to put this as a separate post because my last one got long and i feel this one is going to be long too, but i really wanted to respond to this specifically.

i honestly really wish it were possible to record and send data in non-visual, non-auditory formats, and i've wished that since childhood. the idea of some kind of digital "feeling" that goes beyond vibration has always been the greatest sci-fi goal to me, and it seems like no technology has ever been seriously developed with this goal in mind.

i play rhythm games, and when they're well-designed these games combine visual and auditory information into a single cohesive experience. if they're well-designed, it's possible to play rhythm game maps (or charts) without sound. it's a very different experience than with sound, of course, but it becomes an alternative method of experiencing the music. this chart is perfectly timed to the notes and rhythm, that's literally the name of the game, and if you hit the notes on time your body becomes the notes and the rhythm. you become the music.

it's an interactive music experience and yes, in my opinion, it is both easier and more fun if you can hear the music. but the transformation into different media is interesting to me, and i haven't seen any attempts to make games more geared towards this kind of experience, where your own body creates patterns by following the game's instructions. maybe it's been tried and no-one liked it. maybe it only works with rhythm games.

i have no idea how to build webspaces that don't display information in a visual format, and i can concieve of audio as an alternative to that, but i can't think of anything real that would supplant those senses. "supplant" to mean not simply replace, as in be a translation of or alternative to, but literally exist as the sole and intended format.

i can think of plenty of sci-fi ideas that would be great, but realistically, i genuinely can't think of anything. except i guess those digital braille readers, but those are just translators and they aren't a whole experience. that doesn't supplant the visual web, it just replaces it with an alternative.



i have read "against access" and i'm probably going to have to read it again because i kept having Thoughts while i was reading it.

i found myself, while not having experienced what the writer was writing about, having experienced something similar enough that i understood them by proxy.

i know makoton, and homesign, and basic bsl (i do not qualify for the excellent bsl lessons offered by various charities as i'm hearing, and getting them privately is fucking impossible). the few deaf people in whatever town i am in, i usually end up in some level of contact with. and the experience is...a strain, for both of us. i'm not fluent enough in bsl to hold or maintain a real conversation with the linguistic skill of someone who is fluent. the regional differences in bsl don't help. i've moved around enough that i've picked up some inconsistent regionalities.

communicating in writing is easier for me, even face-to-face, and a lot of deaf people, initially excited at learning there's someone else in town who signs, discovering that the only way we can effectively communicate is with the same note-scribbling system they have to use with everyone else, are often disappointed. i don't blame them. i feel the same excitement-disappointment when i see someone using welsh online, only to discover that they don't even live in wales and google-translated it.

they don't have the time, energy, or skill to teach me their language. i don't expect them, but unfortunately it seems that hearing people don't know a single sign so when they see someone sign at all they assume they're completely fluent.

the rare occasion i've been around bsl interpereters (always by proxy, usually at some group event) has been...weird. i have to watch the signer, because bsl is very much a visual form of communication that goes beyond sign-to-word translation. the whole vibe of the message hinges on the energy, the force, the shape of the body and the face, in a way that i honestly don't know as i can describe in writing. sometimes people sign in italics. i can't explain how, they just do. it's obvious if you're looking.

the interpereter will not simply translate the bsl into english literally (the word order is completely different), but will interperet the message into something they can express in a similar way in a sentence that sounds like english. it usually doesn't sound like natural english though, they tend to be neat, simple, clipped sentences. sometimes it sounds more like they're saying newspaper headlines.

interpereters will emphasise the same parts of the message the signer emphasised, or at least i think so. at least on the times when i know the signs used that was the case. they will not repeat facial expressions or body language, and i don't know why. is it because they don't feel they can repeat it correctly? because they're assuming i saw it the first time? i probably did, so it's fine, but it honestly makes the interpereter feel...robotic, somehow.

when translating what hearing people speak into bsl, interpereters often insert body language or facial expressions that weren't present in the speaker. i imagine the goal is to turn the sound of their voice into visual information, but, to me, this tends to get invented for more monotone speakers. it looks to me like the interpereter is inventing an emotion that wasn't present in the speaker.

i struggle to make sense of auditory information. i have to work hard to understand spoken language, english or otherwise. i benefit from watching the speaker's lips and hands and body as they speak. but especially their lips.

bsl interpereters, at least the ones i've seen, feel very robotic when doing bsl-to-speech. i know they're literally repeating someone else's words, and i think that's always going to feel kind of robotic, but they keep their hands clasped in front of them. this is, i think, for the benefit of the deaf people in the room. i don't know if this is how they prefer it. most people move their hands a lot when they speak, even if they don't think they do. it's natural, and i find it...not informative on its own, but often helpful context. robbed of that, i lose context on some of the sounds, and find them harder to understand.

i wondered if it's a similar experience on the other side. that speech-to-bsl feels as robotic and robbed of context because something natural has been removed in the name of access.

i thought maybe it's just me, because i sit in an unlucky middleground between hearing and deaf, unable to communicate fluently in three languages.

the way this author describes their experience of a world-changing event through a trained sign-language interpereter as being sanitised out of the discussion because it's not the thing they were there for matches, in terms of vibes, with my experiences with an interpereter too. anything "not relevant" isn't worth interpereting. they're human beings, but they're trained to act like robots. ironically, real robots do a worse job.

back when i did have some (paid, absolute beginner) bsl lessons, i got to know one of the students there. a teenager who'd been Deaf all her life and grew up with homesign, like a lot of deaf children do in villages. she was taking the lessons with her mother, who was now also going deaf. this teenager was the only Deaf person in the room besides the tutor (who had a cochlear implant. she said she'd gotten it for the sole purpose of becoming a bsl interpereter, but after seeing how terrible the bsl lessons were for prospective interpereters, decided to become a bsl teacher instead).

there were some older people who were losing their hearing but weren't quite deaf yet, and some other fully-hearing adults who were learning because they knew someone who was deaf, normally a relative. i was the only one there because i couldn't speak.

i already had some bsl knowledge, mixed indiscriminately with makoton and homesign. the tutor found mine and the teenager's sign knowledge typical for those who had never had any formal education in bsl, but needed a non-auditory form of communication.

despite the fact that we had completely different homesigns, and that the teenager did not know makoton, we communicated better with one another than anyone else in the room. we picked up one another's homesign intuitively, and combined with our limited but growing knowledge of bsl could communicate surprisingly well. i'm sure i understood, at most, about a third of anything she said, and she likewise of i, but we got along well enough. we got along on vibes, and concepts, and broad gestures. eloquent and verbose discussion was off the table. we could not talk about more abstract concepts, because we couldn't agree on an intuitive sign for those concepts.

she told me a story about entering a dog obedience show with her rottweiler, who was in all practical senses a hearing dog but was not formally recognised as such because he'd recieved no formal training. he behaved very well, but they did not place. the first place winner bit someone, though, and her dog didn't bite anyone, so what's the point in obedience training.

at least, i think that was the story she told. that was how i interpereted it. i don't know how many details i got wrong.

there was a shape between us, of this barrier we both knew existed and were doing our best to work around, but could never forget about or overcome.

sometimes i see, in movies, two characters who speak different languages but communicate fluently anyway. this is normally, at least in english-language movies, shown as one character speaking a non-english language, and the english-speaker understanding them and responding in english; and the non-english speaker understanding that and responding in their own language.

common discussions around this kind of thing supposes that both characters are fluent in both languages, and are choosing to speak only in their own native. that, in a practical sense, no linguistic barrier exists. that is not how i saw it.

i saw it as two characters who are only fluent in their own language, but can make just enough sense of the other's to, with context clues, comprehend the basic idea. in most cases.



this got even longer than i expected. i have no idea how much of any of that was worth sharing. but i think, and this is what that article kept making me think about, communicating across any barrier is inherently limited. the barrier itself creates a shape in that communication. you can feel it even if you're not acknowledging it, or not fully aware the barrier is creating that shape. i have similar, but different, experiences in welsh-english communication, and honestly a lot of other communication barriers too.

i think interpereting a picture into words, for example, can be beneficial for someone who can't see that picture, but it leaves the shape of the picture behind. there's a picture here, and you can't see it, and everyone else can. you wonder what you're missing.

i am not blind, but my browser is set to always display alt-text below images. i also sometimes browse the web with images disabled because i find them visually overwhelming, or my internet is so slow that i don't want them taking up the bandwith. and alt-text displays instead, at least if supplied.

i've seen a lot of different approaches to alt-text.

i've found some sites actually supply information via alt-text that literally does not exist anywhere in the image, which is always interesting. names of subjects that aren't given anywhere but that alt-text, or invisible details like what brand their shirt is or what town the photo was taken in (indoors, where you couldn't even divine that by the shadows)

wikipedia normally goes for something really simple, like "an elderly white man smiling at the camera" (though there are sometimes lengthy talk-page debates about whether to use "white" or "caucasian" or "fair-skinned" or other arguments about linguistic details that literally do not fucking matter, meanwhile the image has no alt-text for nine months). the thumbnail text, which always displays below the image, will usually be more informative, like "john smith at the awards ceremony in 2017". i've always found alt-text on wikipedia superfluous next to the more helpful thumbnail text, but i trust that someone probably benefits from the alt-text and it's usually short and simple so what's the harm.

some sites....go too far. like that parody in the article about describing someone's shirt in too much detail, i've seen a lot of sites do that and i always wondered who is benefitting from this? was the writer of this alt-text paid by the letter?

i think, based on the author's description, something that's closer to what you'd see in a novel (but still short and to the point) would be more helpful. this has always been my instinct on alt-text. it doesn't have to be lengthy or perfectly detailed. just get the vibe across.

but, there'd still be the shape of the image.

the absolute worst approach to alt-text is to automatically transcribe the filename to the alt-text attribute. i've seen this on two sites that allow users to embed images and unfortunately the filenames (and thus the alt-text) tend to very unhelpfully be kaOdHpg94hGUnf5_fkmOdsb-0

no-one wants their screen-reader to read that out.

my approach, on the rare occasion i've needed to think about this, has been to supply a written alternative to the image in the body of the html itself. that is, not to simply descibe the image, but to pretend it doesn't exist and to convey the information it contains in text, so everyone sees it regardless of whether or not they see the image. the image and the text are both alternatives to one another.

this is useful in situations like a screenshot in a tutorial, but if i were making an art page i would not take this approach.

i'm aware that my experience is not the same as someone who has no choice in seeing the images, but i think i see alt-text a lot more than most sighted people so i get a strangely mixed experience. i honestly think all browsers should display alt-text in full by default. i think it would make people think about it more, about how useful it can be, and how ridiculous some alt-text is.



and on your final point about asking blind people how they feel: i've been thinking about this for years. i play an online image-based game website and a lot of other players of that game make a big thing about accessibility for the blind specifically. and while i've no objections to this (and it has lately spawned some very...interesting...approaches to alt-text on the site's official communication) i have yet to see one single solitary blind user on that site. i don't take this as evidence they don't exist. but what i mean is, in all this vocal advocacy for the blind, i have not ONCE seen anyone say "i am blind".



i hope this was helpful to someone.
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Sara Joy
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2024 @923.25 »

Thanks again dirtnap! I do like hearing about personal experiences :)

How I wish I could cover everything - not sure that's possible, but I will do my best to help as many people as possible get started.

I have made a start - a very tiny start - baby steps!

https://whimsica11y.net/
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