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Icey!
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« on: October 28, 2023 @318.52 »

Update: After looking a bit, I think I might have brought up the wrong arguments considering how they are shared in common with transphobes. I apologize if I have angered anyone for bring them back to the table again, even if it was accidental. While I do still think that one day Gender will be eliminated, however, considering how used we are to gender this isn't the time to advocate for the abolishment for it. But now knowing that Gender is a thing that we invented and not discovered I am now even more accepting towards alternate systems to fix our problems with the current one. The topic will still remain open.

(Original paragrath)
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Note: if you expected me to say transphobia read the name of this forum, that's not welcome here! I welcome my gender queer comrades! :4u: But it can get confusing at times.

I think it's fair to say that I haven't been fond of the concept of gender, while I do try my best to be respectful towards those who fall into the "trans experience" but would secretly have voices in my head misgendering them using the wrong pronouns, that is an annoying thing that I deal with from time to time. Back before I knew of such a thing it was easy to assume one's gender based on their appearance, however, this is increasingly becoming difficult due to much of the changing sense of culture. People are starting to change their gender, men are adopting longer hair styles, ladies are getting shorter hair, etc...

While this is a good thing as diversity is good but it starts to get to a point where it becomes too much, I remember one time I saw a non-binary person say that "people getting my pronouns wrong hurts" (or some variation of it), from there perspective I understand where they are coming from as gender-neutral pronouns in the English language are kinda a second thought (not to be confused with the socialist YouTube channel named that), while there do exist (they/them) and (it/it's) but they feel weird to use when describing a person, there also exists a second set of alternate pronouns when describing gender-neutral (Xe/Xem) and my personal favorite (Ze/Zir), but that is unfortunately not very well known and might lead to confusion.

About a day ago I once let out a small "opinion piece" on the unpopular opinions topic which I talked about how I wanted gender to be abolished in the far future and shortly explained how gender identity has became so confusing. This was later met with counterarguments that were understanding why I felt that way but told me that was unrealistic and might cause more problems then it may solve. I recommend seeing some of the counterarguments for yourself as they do have more insight into the issue.
https://forum.melonland.net/index.php?topic=1059.msg21166#msg21166
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« Last Edit: November 01, 2023 @12.70 by Icelogist » Logged



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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2023 @326.18 »

I actually agree with the concept of abolishing gender. Although, I don't do it so much for it being so confusing, but to abolish it as a manner of oppression. I recommend the The Gender Accelerationist Manifesto for a proper read-up on this!
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Icey!
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2023 @332.09 »

I actually agree with the concept of abolishing gender. Although, I don't do it so much for it being so confusing, but to abolish it as a manner of oppression. I recommend the The Gender Accelerationist Manifesto for a proper read-up on this!

A counterCOUNTERargument? That's impressive! For a bit of trivia, I actually though of writing my own manifesto after posting my opinion piece and then stepping back due to people being against the idea. Glad someone wrote it before me!
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Icey!
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2023 @359.58 »

A counterCOUNTERargument? That's impressive! For a bit of trivia, I actually though of writing my own manifesto after posting my opinion piece and then stepping back due to people being against the idea. Glad someone wrote it before me!

Got most of the way threw the reading, they bring up some good points about how gender is a system created by early Europeans to churn out babies and turn them into workers. I never would have thought of it like that! Back to the reading!
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Icey!
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2023 @383.19 »

Got most of the way threw the reading, they bring up some good points about how gender is a system created by early Europeans to churn out babies and turn them into workers. I never would have thought of it like that! Back to the reading!

Just finished reading the manifesto! There is a lot to unpack and I can't find myself disagreeing with it. I don't have much to say because it is getting late but it's a good read! Check it out!
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2023 @632.77 »

I'm dropping resources as well (and saving that gender accelerationist manifesto as food for thought). When I'm just getting used to the concept of a life experience being different from mine, what I like to do is go out looking for people telling first-hand stories about it. I can see some signs in both of your posts that you may be getting info about trans people from sources that may not have their best interests in mind, so it's always an enriching thought experience to contrast what we're being told trans people say vs what they're actually saying.

Ash Hardell was a pivot point in my understanding of queer issues in general. They basically documented their whole coming out journey on youtube, which I find extremely interesting and informative. Going back to fetch that link I just saw they started posting again, which !!!! come back of the century right there.

Jamie is a trans guy that's also been making videos about being trans for the better part of a decade now. He's started doing more react-type videos, which I don't think are a good place to start especially if you're coming from male-dominated communities because they can potentially push the wrong buttons if you're not 100% on board with everything else. He has lots of videos debunking common transphobic "talk points" (including the infamous JKR letter), a video series about trans memes that's so much fun, AND a PhD in psychology so you know his videos are going to be precise, well researched and extremely articulated.

I was about to leave fiction stories out of this but honestly. It helped me so I'm dropping them into the void just in case someone finds them helpful as well:
George/Melissa by Alex Gino is about a middle schooler trans girl. The author is genderqueer.
I wish you all the best by Mason Deaver has a non binary main character that's kicked out of their house when they come out to their parents. It has a subplot for an online friendship that has nothing to do with being trans but that I really enjoyed as an online communities permanent resident lol. Also explores the feelings of cis people around using the wrong pronouns for the main character!! And the author is nonbinary themselves :)

Also to get on the abolishing gender talk, I'm not really sure where I stand. I would love if gender stopped being a category drenched in power dynamics like Bede said, but I don't think I want it gone. I like being a woman and finding community in other women, and I wouldn't want that taken away. If the social hierarchy (as an abstract idea, enforced by the institutions like actually hold the power to control it) could chill a little about treating people like shit just because of the gender identity/expression they have or don't have that would be ideal, though.
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Icey!
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2023 @755.42 »

I can see some signs in both of your posts that you may be getting info about trans people from sources that may not have their best interests in mind, so it's always an enriching thought experience to contrast what we're being told trans people say vs what they're actually saying.

This would be correct (at least for me), while I don't believe in how "transgender grooms children" but one type of comment I do keep finding is one were they will tell a short story how they were told that they were the opposite gender as a child and attempted to "fit in" with that gender only to go back years later. While this shouldn't be a reason to be hateful towards trans, I did take it as a criticism more towards the "gender groups" and how transgender could cause someone to transition even when they don't know what they are doing. Although this feels more like a massive parental error for the parents not catching on.

It's also likely that I just don't know enough about transgender and why someone transitions, I've heard about how some trans girls act like tomboys which can explain how someone can error in the wrong direction when it comes to identifying if they should transition or not.
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2023 @871.77 »

Ooh my turn to counterargument!  :grin:  (note: I'll be using TGD to refer to people who aren't cisgender. So nonbinary, trans, genderqueer, etc. Also I am American and I'm using American statistics, internationally your mileage will vary.)

This would be correct (at least for me), while I don't believe in how "transgender grooms children" but one type of comment I do keep finding is one were they will tell a short story how they were told that they were the opposite gender as a child and attempted to "fit in" with that gender only to go back years later. While this shouldn't be a reason to be hateful towards trans, I did take it as a criticism more towards the "gender groups" and how transgender could cause someone to transition even when they don't know what they are doing.

A study from 2021 found that while approximately 13% of TGD individuals will detransition in their lives, 82% of those people cited at least one external factor such as lack of family support, and 16% of those people cited an internal factor such as genderfluidity and gender questioning. As these factors change, these individuals may decide to retransition. 16% of 13% is extremely low. Peer pressure is one hell of a drug, sure, but 2% odds aren't ones that you would bet on.

I did take it as a criticism more towards the "gender groups" and how transgender could cause someone to transition even when they don't know what they are doing. Although this feels more like a massive parental error for the parents not catching on.

Social affirmation can be done at any age and is completely reversible, as are puberty blockers. (Most likely, that's what this particular person went through under false pretences.) Hormone therapy is partially reversible, and can start any time after adolescence. The only gender affirming care that cannot be reversed are gender affirming surgeries, but they are almost never performed on minors and generally require year(s) of hormone therapy before doctors (and/or insurance) allows it to happen. I cannot stress enough how much time, money, therapy, and hormone treatments TGD people have to go through to get to the point of surgery. If you see anyone claim that they were forced by someone/forced themselves through surgery, please use your critical thinking and media analysis skills.

Side note: several states have banned any form of gender affirming care for minors. In these states, the only way for kids and teens to transition is socially. [HRC, NYT

On a more personal and anecdotal note: I think both in the LGBT+ community and in society as a whole, there's been more of shift towards understanding gender identity and expression as fluid. Even in that study I cited, they noted that using "detransition" as a word is falling out of favor because of its association with feelings of regret. Gender is a spectrum, and it's one that we should all be free to explore. I'm not using the same labels I was a year ago, much less the same ones I used back in high school. Sometimes exploration just means that you end up right where you started. That's perfectly okay. :)

Edit 10/29/23 - one of my source links wasn't working. I'm still getting used to bbcode formating...  :ohdear:
« Last Edit: October 29, 2023 @737.19 by kurohaato » Logged


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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2023 @992.14 »

I think it might be helpful to view pronouns as somewhat like names. Names sometimes have gendered associations in our world, but they're not inherently gendered, and just like pronouns, it can be frustrating to be constantly referred to by the wrong one. You don't have to assume what gender someone is or what pronouns they use based on their appearance, you can simply ask them politely (I get asked all the time what pronouns I use, since I'm fairly androgynous, I'm not offended by this at all).
The part you mentioned about detransition is a narrative pushed by anti-trans groups. Like, yes, some people detransition. That's not the fault of trans people. I detransitioned because I figured out I wasn't binary male but rather nonbinary and more woman than not, but my parents are not in the wrong for having allowed me to go on testosterone. It's fine. If it's not the end of the world when trans kids go through the wrong puberty because they didn't know they were trans yet and assumed they were cis, then it's not the end of the world if a cis kid goes on hormones and then detransitions later because they figured out they weren't trans. All puberty has permanent effects, anyways.
Sorry if I sound annoyed, but I've had experiences like mine used way too many times as an excuse to be transphobic to the people I love and even myself as well (because I am still transgender, transphobia does still affect me).
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2023 @990.79 »

I actually agree with the concept of abolishing gender. Although, I don't do it so much for it being so confusing, but to abolish it as a manner of oppression. I recommend the The Gender Accelerationist Manifesto for a proper read-up on this!

I read through some of the book, and some of the stuff written is kind of concerning. "It’s an overhaul of society which allows for queer people to take its reigns and remake it in our image" wouldnt doing the same stuff that others have been doing to us be kind of problematic? i know they wanna take down capitalism and whatever, which i dont mind, but what about all the other people? I dont think we should tailor the world to one specific group of people because there could be huge issues with that.
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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2023 @168.69 »

I read through some of the book, and some of the stuff written is kind of concerning. "It’s an overhaul of society which allows for queer people to take its reigns and remake it in our image" wouldnt doing the same stuff that others have been doing to us be kind of problematic? i know they wanna take down capitalism and whatever, which i dont mind, but what about all the other people? I dont think we should tailor the world to one specific group of people because there could be huge issues with that.

When it says "remake it in our image", the implication is that it's not just for queer people, but it becomes remade as a safe space for queer people. Eliminating oppression, that sort of fun stuff that probably won't happen within our lifetimes, but is nice to imagine.
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2023 @183.74 »

I read through some of the book, and some of the stuff written is kind of concerning. "It’s an overhaul of society which allows for queer people to take its reigns and remake it in our image" wouldnt doing the same stuff that others have been doing to us be kind of problematic? i know they wanna take down capitalism and whatever, which i dont mind, but what about all the other people? I dont think we should tailor the world to one specific group of people because there could be huge issues with that.

I think the section about "Gender Identity Under Communism" touches on your concern here. Short version is that they're not interested in taking away your gender or any other aspect of your identity unless your identity is forcing unwanted gender or other roles on other people. Or so this manifesto claims.

Frankly, I'm a bit skeptical. Most people can't even liberate themselves to any meaningful extent, let alone band together to overthrow the capitalist patriarchy.
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2023 @269.19 »

Frankly, I'm a bit skeptical. Most people can't even liberate themselves to any meaningful extent, let alone band together to overthrow the capitalist patriarchy.

Agree on this. But honestly, my mindset is that if you shoot for the moon, you'll still end up among the stars, or something. Which is to say, if a group of people banded together to overthrow capitalist patriarchy, and they fail, they probably would have still done a lot of good in their efforts to do so. Good that they wouldn't have done if they had just shrugged their shoulders and said "it's not realistic".
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2023 @565.61 »

That's fine. I don't trust other people, so I do what I can on my own and try to be the change I want to see in the world.
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2023 @765.08 »

I actually agree with the concept of abolishing gender. Although, I don't do it so much for it being so confusing, but to abolish it as a manner of oppression. I recommend the The Gender Accelerationist Manifesto for a proper read-up on this!

Just from a quick read-through of this manifesto, I can get where you're coming from, but personally, I disagree with it. I am an anti-corporatist, but I'm not an anti-capitalist or a revolutionary or anything, so I think that might be part of it. Furthermore, there was this quote:

Quote
When you get assigned the male class, but you loudly assert the opposite, you have said “no” to gender. Gender gave you what you are, but you turned away in disgust. You are not a man, you are something else. Some find comfort in womanhood, others in something entirely outside, but whichever path you take, you have said no to gender.

Myself, I don't feel like I've rejected gender, but that I've rejected my false gender in favour of my true gender. I feel rather more like I've embraced gender and like this is who God means me to be. I don't really view this as some hostile imposition of an oppressive system, but honestly, I just view it closer to a birth defect: for whatever reason, I was simply born with a body incongruent with my gender, and to find my place as a daughter of God is one of my trials in life. Perhaps God meant this to strengthen me as a person, or perhaps to help me better appreciate being a woman, or perhaps something else. I don't really know, but that's not what matters. What matters is that I'm a woman, and that's how I feel comfortable---in the kind of society that this manifesto advocates, I don't think I'd feel comfortable at all. The current system has great flaws, of course, but I don't think the solution is necessarily to throw everything out, you know? Because I can't think of any other system where I'd end up feeling comfortable. Anyways, I really hope all that wasn't too preachy. :)
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