What does a successful project mean to you?

[Melooon]

So a back story; In 2019 my site was at position #3 on the Neocities websites list, and I was scared to update it, because I didn't want to do anything to detract from it. These days its slipped down that board a bit and I finally feel like an can reclaim it and start having fun again.

Looking back; for me having a "successful" site was a mixed experience, I loved the feedback and sense of value it gave me (and still gives me), but popularity also stole my site from me.

In a world where on the web you can have an almost unlimited amount of attention, is attention really something to shoot for? If its not a good metric for the success of something, what should be?

How do you think about the success or lack of success of your projects? Do you find it enough to make things for yourself, or do you balance that out with what the wider world wants? What kind of feedback do you hope for from your work and why?

[Ash]

good question well since my site would be personal I would just hope some people see it but it not get super popular. But if it did I would just do what I want since its a personal website

[m15o]

That's a great question to ask!

I think success means different things to different people. For some, success means a lot of visits, a lot of subscriptions, perhaps even some monetary value if your website sells something. While I understand people who think this way, I don't view a side-project the same way as I would see a business.

While the main goal of a business is to generate revenue, I think the main goal of a side-project is to have fun. Even better if we learn a thing or two while having fun. And if we meet awesome people while at it? Great! I think projects are a way to explore our creativity, to try new things, to build useless stuff because we can. It's the one place where we don't need an actual metric other than enjoying doing it.

Popularity on internet is a weird beast to say the least. I would trade a hundred of likes for a single meaningful interaction with someone who takes time to read and react to something you create. A little like I'm doing here!

[xandra]

i love this question! i'll talk just about personal sites because usually you want a commercial site to become wildly popular beyond everyone's imaginations, haha!

for my personal site, i don't know what this is attributed to, but i honestly don't want to be super popular or 'viral.' it seems to ruin most things surrounding content and individuality. once you start having to appeal to the masses, the things that made it so special go away, it seems. just like with what happened with you updating your site! even outside of neocities, creators who claim they're going to keep doing the same thing they've always done eventually do not, because people grow and change. (at least, i'd like to think so!) i think i've reached a point in my life where i just want quality, not quantity, in terms of my digital interactions. i'd like small groups to discover my project over time, in waves. i definitely would not want to explode in popularity. that's a lot of responsibility.

it's very different than when i was a kid, and i wanted a super popular site. i realize now i was looking for validation, but maybe that had something to do with trying to legitimize all the time we were spending on the web back then.

how do you think this fits into the widespread social media culture we've been living in? do you think this is an internalized response or just more yearning for nostalgia?

[Melooon]

i think i've reached a point in my life where i just want quality, not quantity, in terms of my digital interactions. i'd like small groups to discover my project over time, in waves. i definitely would not want to explode in popularity. that's a lot of responsibility.

how do you think this fits into the widespread social media culture we've been living in? do you think this is an internalized response or just more yearning for nostalgia?

I was discussing this with my mum a while ago, shes a full time artist, so its a similar thing in relation to popularity of work and different ideas of success. We agreed that as you get older you have less need for validation. I'm in my 20s, so I still like quite a lot of validation, however its definitely less of a need than when I was like 14; by the time I'm in my 50s I suspect I really wont care at all Although sites/games are not side projects to me, they are my main purpose in life, so I'll always want some return from them.

Social media is all about validation, but its not really about acknowledging real work or accomplishment. An artist can have millions of likes on a work, but that's meaningless compared to having that work shown in a well regarded gallery, even if only a few hundred people see it there.

Nostalgia is a good way to start escaping social media, but if you get stuck in it your not going anywhere! So its a reaction at its best, and a yearning at its worst

[Cobra!]

To me, it's about the quality of attention, not the quantity. My game dev Twitter account just hit 300 followers, and my posts make 20-30 likes each, which are great numbers at least for me, but this one email I got from someone who said they loved my Gemini Capsule meant so much for me!

At the end of the day, follower and view counts are just numbers. You don't know any of them, but an email, and a sign in your guestbook, that's way more personal, and it feels so much better to receive those!

In fact I don't like the idea of having follower counts on Neocities, because as someone that likes to be competitive and compare myself to others, it just gives me anxiety. I'd rather not know how many visits or followers I have, and just hear from those who have, like with my Gopher and Gemini hosts.

Although I hope to make back the money that I've spent developing my game through sales, so knowing how many are paying attention to the game to begin with is important to gauge whether the money I pour into it is worth it, but honestly, hearing about people enjoying my creation is more important to me in the end.

[Nightdrift]

Lots of great responses on this thread!

This may come across as strong, but I currently find myself pretty repulsed at the idea of any personal expression of mine going "viral" or becoming commodified by others. But I think much of my angst is born of fear regarding the current climate of entitlement and consumerism on more "popular" web/social media/larger content platforms. As someone who did predominantly frequent artistic communities, I saw many artists I enjoyed or admired burn out time and time again in part to the pressure of the platform, entitled fanbases, bizarre algorithms, etc. Fortunately, this does not seem to be as prevalent in retro-web spaces, and I certainly hope it stays that way.

I think my sentiment on what makes a successful project is pretty aligned with some of the other responses here: I do want to know that my work has reached someone -- but not in metrics of likes, follows, and reposts. As a creative person, I genuinely do love my work, and I will always be my own biggest fan, so I want to be able to represent my work in a way that feels right, not in a way where others can put it into some sort of box/assign its worthiness via numbers -- much less for other people to see those numbers and decide whether it is worth looking at only if the value is high enough! That all said, I fully admit that I also struggle not to compare myself to others when it comes to a numbers race...so in the end, receiving a thoughtful message in my guestbook is currently the highest honor I feel I can get. It feels great, and very genuine!

Ultimately, for me, a successful personal website/project would be like...curating and maintaining a museum. I do not necessarily have to know the number of people who have visited, or hear the opinions of every single person who passes through... but I would be honored for anyone who resonates with what I have shared to want to share their honest and personal feelings about the exhibition. It is still important to me to be able to derive as much personal fulfillment as possible from my personal passions, rather than from outside approval -- it can be hard though, sometimes ;P

I am sure my thoughts on this will evolve even further with time, but those are my garbled thoughts for now (I won't really touch on "professional/commercial" projects though LOL. I think that is an entirely different territory I have not quite thought extensively about.)

[Cobra!]

I think much of my angst is born of fear regarding the current climate of entitlement and consumerism on more "popular" web/social media/larger content platforms. As someone who did predominantly frequent artistic communities, I saw many artists I enjoyed or admired burn out time and time again in part to the pressure of the platform, entitled fanbases, bizarre algorithms, etc.

Yeah, I think modern social media, and the society we live in in general, places so much emphasis on numbers and quantity, rather than quality.

It would be easy for me to say I won't be pressured by entitled fans, but sadly, I don't think it'd be commercially viable to do so. If you piss off these fans, then they won't spend any more money on your art or projects which ultimately leads to less money in your pocket, and some people do this for a full time job.

It's kind of upsetting, really.

[JINSBEK]

So, I really think it depends on the project. A commercial project you've put your heart into?--Obviously, you want to see some kind of cash return on this. And sometimes it's "too late" even if in the end you made a great product, if you suffered too heavy losses of attrition and wrong decisions during development. A lot of start-ups fail not because they didn't create a great thing--a lot of times, they do--but because of mismanagement on the way there.

But let's go for an artistic, hobby project. Like a personal website. Haha. For me, for example, my aim with my website is to have a place to write about my art. Now, there's a million places I could just put my art up, maybe even get a bunch of views and Likes and comments, etc, and also include like, some kind of description content too. But that's not enough for me. I need referential hyperlinks, I need dropcaps for different "segments" of thought, I need images and other media embedded cascading and layered in such a way that shows what was important to me during the creative process. I need an in-depth post-mortem on every significant opus--partially for myself, so I can learn what was successful and what I need to build upon (or perhaps never try again). Basically, I need a magazine feature for each of my substantial artworks. So I consider each individual artwork webpage successful if it meets the needs of my art.

What "threatens" my success here? Well first, JavaScript. But that's largely been dealt with. Second, accounting for three different viewport sizes (doing it clumsily on one viewport is very frustrating and dissatisfying to me). Three, being stupid about what I write. It's been harder for me post-COVID this year. I've lost a lot of my vocabulary and ability to sequence things, I'm still going through stroke rehab, so I guess the biggest threats to my artistic success are actually not eating enough and not sleeping enough (in order to actually recover from successive brain injuries).

I've had the good fortune of being involved with enough projects (professional and hobbyist) that I have enough experience to immediately notice mission/vision drift and loss and quickly course-correct when the situation arises. Sounds nerdy/overkill, but I'm using Notion to write, maintain, and refer to a Positioning and an Initiatives document for building my website. It's helped a lot in keeping my eyes on the prize and guarding myself against being discouraged by external factors.

[Corrupted Unicorn]

Unsure if this is the kind of answer anybody is looking for, but I would like to lay some thoughts on one of my own projects: an AMV of a ship only I care about.

This was the first "project" I did right after finishing college. Some background on that. Game design college, which taught me a lot of stuff (including 2D animation) but was also... a very complicated experience for me. Lots of subjects and skills I struggled with (coding  ) and a classmate environment that was... well, unhealthy.  Lots of competition and was being looked down by fellow artists because I have no graphic design degree or an artist influencer relative.

My state of mind (and state of my art) was... truly something. I spend four years trying to please teachers and fellow classmates with my art. Four years of being relegated to other tasks (like game design) when what I really wanted to do was to make art. Four years of me feverishly creating art to the best of my ability only for it to be put down and not used in class projects, when my "fellow" classmates' art managed to get through said class projects yes or yes, even if it was no longer needed. They never bothered to ask me if I wanted my art to be included regardless. Four years of the memory of that one time I eavesdropped on my classmates, talking about who would get an actual job at the game industry after the degree was over, and my name being excluded from there. Four years that did nothing but intensify that what I do was never, is never, and will never be enough.

The final blow was the final project for the whole degree. My first animated short... the whole ordeal meant a lot for me, you know? If you read my homepage, you know I've always wanted to make animation, and that project would be like... the proof. Proof that I could make my dream, my calling, my vocation come true. However, seems I bit more than I could chew, and that was my biggest flaw in the project: teachers wanted a finished product and not... a half-baked thing by someone with big ideas. But it hurt. It hurt that I was punished for dreaming big.

So, after everything was over, and I was sitting on my ass at home looking for jobs, I was quite demoralized. I didn't even want to try working on anything art-related like what my idea was four years ago. But if you have a creative spirit, whether you're an artist, an animator, a programmer, a sculptor or whatever your kind of art is, you know that desire to create things out of nothing never quite fades away forever. And I wanted to create something. But this time, not something to try to please someone else. Not a portfolio piece to impress potential employers. Not fanart of the popular thing of the moment to throw at the social medias and hope the algorythm is pleased. No.

I wanted to create something for me.

Enter the "ship no one else but me cares about". Pretty self-descriptive. Pretty self-indulgent. No one else in the world will make anything about these two unless I do it or pay someone else to do it, and hey, I was fresh out of college with lots of free time on my hands until I found a job. It was absurd, and I would never gain anything from it, not even attention, no one would care about it. But I had to make it happen. For myself. For my own art.

The process of creating was feverish. All the art featured on the AMV is drawn by myself. It took an absurd amount of time. I even got a job in the middle of that, and I remember getting back from work and hammering away at the Wacom and Photoshop on my free time. Trying new brushes, creating new brushes, experimenting with lineart and shading and palettes and characters interacting with eachothers and even some shy attempts at backgrounds. It's actually put together in Windows Movie Maker, like the originals.

And it's a mess. I can't even look at it again. It's, undoubtedly, the cringiest thing I have ever created. It's ugly and the colors are garish and it took me until the very final drawings to finally "get" how I was supposed to draw one of the pair.

Yet, I think I learned a lot from creating this.

That I can finish projects. That, even if they deviate slightly from the original idea, they can still carry the original intention. How to create brushes in Photoshop (and fun ones, at that!). That art is, ultimately, about the process of creation in itself, and not whether others like it or not. That I can make things with whatever tools I have available right now, without waiting for a better time or a better tool. That I still have a lot to learn about art, and that, this time, it's born out of love for art, and not love for approval.

I think this extremely self-indulgent project was a necessary stepping stone in the right direction for me as an artist, and this is why I deem it a success.

[VioletHeaven]

That's actually a really good question! I think, before, being successful meant a project that I could make money off, and that everyone would love, and that I could be praised for... but after self reflection, and seeing just how toxic the main media environment can be sometimes, I'd honestly rather to get a small number of meaningful interactions with the same people, or even just my partner, rather than hundreds of thousands of silent views. Plus, I also really want to measure my own success with my own satisfaction of how my website is turning out, rather than what other people think. I mean, I love to hear what other people have to say, but I'd rather be proud of something because I like it, rather than making something I hate just because it'll get that much attention.

how do you think this fits into the widespread social media culture we've been living in? do you think this is an internalized response or just more yearning for nostalgia?

I think this really fits into the current social media context, or at least, how it has pushed you in this direction. Most social media (Twitter, Instagram...) prioritizes quantity over the actual quality of it, due to a need to appeal "to the masses", so I think it's actually pretty natural to want to prioritize what you want to create, even if it doesn't make you go viral! Honestly, I was actually pretty nervous when I saw so many visits pop up on my site after my fiancé posted it here... but honestly, it doesn't really matter that much. I can keep doing what I like to do, and if people don't like it, then there's plenty of other places for them to go. At least that's how I see it!

How do you think about the success or lack of success of your projects? Do you find it enough to make things for yourself, or do you balance that out with what the wider world wants? What kind of feedback do you hope for from your work and why?

Like I said earlier, I honestly don't really care that much about what the wider world might "want". Maybe people don't like an ocean theme for a game journal page! But I like it, so I did it... honestly, the most feedback I hope to get is actually people suggesting features I might be interested in, like my fiancé does, rather than just praise. It means people want to see it grow!

So, I really think it depends on the project. A commercial project you've put your heart into?--Obviously, you want to see some kind of cash return on this. And sometimes it's "too late" even if in the end you made a great product, if you suffered too heavy losses of attrition and wrong decisions during development. A lot of start-ups fail not because they didn't create a great thing--a lot of times, they do--but because of mismanagement on the way there.

But let's go for an artistic, hobby project. Like a personal website. Haha. For me, for example, my aim with my website is to have a place to write about my art. Now, there's a million places I could just put my art up, maybe even get a bunch of views and Likes and comments, etc, and also include like, some kind of description content too. But that's not enough for me. I need referential hyperlinks, I need dropcaps for different "segments" of thought, I need images and other media embedded cascading and layered in such a way that shows what was important to me during the creative process. I need an in-depth post-mortem on every significant opus--partially for myself, so I can learn what was successful and what I need to build upon (or perhaps never try again). Basically, I need a magazine feature for each of my substantial artworks. So I consider each individual artwork webpage successful if it meets the needs of my art.

Right! I totally agree! I think that you should build a website to fit your personal needs and goals first, whatever they might be (like you said, yours is for an artistic magazine... but if you're building a commercial website, cashflow is important), then think about the kinds of people you'd like to attract, second. Or, I guess you don't have to think about it at all, if you're not really "trying" for a specific audience. I really appreciate your website for how it feels like an art magazine, and that you break down each art piece into the caption, description, then post-mortem on the creative process! I feel like I can really get a good idea on how your thought (and artistic process...) works, and appreciate your art more for it!

But for a more personal website like mine, it's more for my own personal reflection (the diary and game journal, especially) and fun side projects, like the bunny facts and image pages... I'll probably nab some of your design techniques for the game journal, but my main focus is really just having fun!

Anyway, that's just my two cents! 

[wygolvillage]

For me, a successful project is a finished one. Getting eyes on it is just a bonus! (That being said I love how many sweet comments I get on my profile and I'm pretty shocked that my individual-viewer counter is at 5300+ now, that is a LOT of people...)

For a long time I've struggled with commitment to finishing projects (especially in writing) so having a "finished product" of sorts is always my goal. I find myself dropping projects a lot less if they're for my site, though, if only because I get myself super excited for how it will look or play once it's up and running.

[nihil0]

Success specifically for my site (my current largest project), is dependent on my own happiness with it, while I love when people interact with it and hopefully in the future read my writings, like my artwork and share my passions, it is first and foremost a place for myself to tend to like a little garden that puts my own personal dent into the vast WWW.

Finishing a shrine or a particularly long blog is just a little part of the whole, it is a step to success!

I want my pages to be bustling with graphics and my thoughts and everything that I can get down onto it, and make it look awesome in the process! It's not something to finish or monetize or make a fanbase for, as long as it's thriving with my thoughts and projects, that is what deems it as a success to myself.

[Bede]

Reading all these different perspectives on what makes a successful project is interesting. Mainly because, to be very honest, I've always considered a project to be 'successful' the moment that it is completed (and I've always assumed it's the same for everybody else).

I view a project as 'successful' when it is 'successfully' created. Any outside reaction or feedback has no bearing on whether or not a project is a success because, in order to be shared, it has to have already been a success (completed). The only project that is a failure is the project that is not created at all.

I believe this is largely due to my struggles with executive function. The struggle of creating something, and seeing it to its end, is the difficult part. So, if I so much as finish a project, I have overcome the biggest hurdle to making what I want. Which leads me to classify it as a "success" in my mind. I've never thought to think of it any other way.

Now that I'm thinking about it consciously, though, I think I'm glad I have this mindset. It seems like a relatively healthy way to view my creations, in relation to the internet and engagement, all things considered.