MelonLand Discussion 2024 ~ Have your say here!

[Melooon]

Hello! Welcome to the official discussion thread for this year; this is the first time we are doing this so lets see how it goes!

This thread is a place to raise issues; hear whats happening on my end and generally discuss topics that might need discussing. 


Topic 1: What are the mods upto!
As you know there is a team of moderators who help on the forum! We are switching over to a new-ish system where every 6 months mods will step down and new people will be selected to be mods for the following 6 months!
The job of mods is mostly to discuss and help make choices about sensitive issues, such as what to do about reported topics/posts, how to work with community issues, deal with spam, approve new members etc!
We are currently getting @dirtnap started as a new mod (welcome!), while @j will be stepping down soon! (thanks for the help!)
If you are interested in modding at some point in the future, you can always let me know ~ we tend to select people based on what the forum needs and its helpful to have a list of potential names ready.

 

Topic 2: Image Archiving
As of this week Iv been testing a new archival project to save copies of every image on the forum. Currently we have around 5000 images linked and 700 of those are broken or dead ~ As the years go by this number is sure to rise, and Id like to have a way to restore images in the distant future. So far the test was successful and I think we can continue it for now ~ if you wish to remove an image from the archive, simply remove it from whatever post its in.

 

Topic 3: Board Reorganization
Iv been tinkering with board reorganization recently! Feel free to have a look at whats chnages and let me know how it feels!

 

Topic 4: Server Stuff
As MelonLand projects have grown we have acquired a number of small servers that run all the bits we host! Its reached a point now where the code we are using is getting outdated and we have sooo many servers (like 5?) thats its getting a bit silly and expensive. So I'm exploring moving everything to a new server at some point ~ this should not be a big issue for anyone here, but ideally it will allow things to run a little better and for us to host more stuff, since atm we are kinda maxed on server resources!

 

Topic 5: Thinking about the future and the mood here
The last three topics kinda highlight something for me; that's that MelonLand as a forum is starting to change from an uppity new forum, into something more established. I'm wondering how we handle that change and if this space is still offering the kinda mood that we set out to create ~ I think for me there's a personal touch that feels a little less present these day and I wonder why that is. I wanted to get peoples opinions on this one since Im sure you have feelings too!

 

Topic 6: Features and Bugs
There are a few outstanding feature requests I'm aware of, but I wanted to ask if there are any outstanding bugs of feature requests that you feel have been overlooked or forgotten?

 

Topic 7: Updates to the rules
The mods have made a few suggestions for update sto the rules ~ Mainly adding two forum rules. 1. Requests for participation in external projects (such as inviting submissions to a zine) should only be allowed if the project also loosely fits the community rules here. 2. Topics that are primarily complaints (such as, Pasta tasted better in the 90s!) must encourage brainstorming for solutions (such as, Watch the Lion King while eating pasta to make it more 90s) ~ We really need to word these better!

 

Topic 8: Are we having fun?
Have you having fun? I think Iv not been having so much fun in my life the last few months and I worry it impacts here! Sometimes its hard to tell if what we feel is really out there in the world or just in ourselves ~

 

Topic 9: Your topics!
Feel free to raise a topic if you think there's one to discuss!

 

Thank's and I hope to have a good discussion     

[xixxii]

Topic 5: Thinking about the future and the mood here
The last three topics kinda highlight something for me; that's that MelonLand as a forum is starting to change from an uppity new forum, into something more established. I'm wondering how we handle that change and if this space is still offering the kinda mood that we set out to create ~ I think for me there's a personal touch that feels a little less present these day and I wonder why that is. I wanted to get peoples opinions on this one since Im sure you have feeling too!

 

hmm i guess it depends on what that mood you're setting out to create is! so: what is that mood?

i have noticed that the forum is not super in line with some of the guidelines and ideas of what the forum is supposedly "for"- people use acronyms/abbreviations and make short posts all the time, for example, and it doesn't seem like the focus is primarily on webcrafting or web art and the forum serves as a more generalized social space - but that's not really a "mood" haha.
in general the mood seems casual and mildmannered but a bit detached; i think often folks lean towards using the forum as a replacement for social media, where they are posting for the sake of posting and/or responding to forum topics only to respond to the original post, like you would in a comments section, rather than specifically engaging in conversations. this creates a somewhat "distant" feeling to me. sometimes it feels a little stagnant, also, due to this "comment section" style of posting; like a lot of threads don't necessarily "go" anywhere, if that makes sense. a certain lack of momentum, i suppose...?
overall it's kind of a "old folks sitting on the sidewalk/porch/stoop shooting the breeze on a slow sunday afternoon" feeling to me.

Topic 7: Updates to the rules
The mods have made a few suggestions for update sto the rules ~ Mainly adding two forum rules. 1. Requests for participation in external projects (such as inviting submissions to a zine) should only be allowed if the project also loosely fits the community rules here. 2. Topics that are primarily complaints (such as, Pasta tasted better in the 90s!) must encourage brainstorming for solutions (such as, Watch the Lion King while eating pasta to make it more 90s) ~ We really need to word these better!

 

a suggestion i have about rules is perhaps reconsidering the wording in rule 1 - "Active fair moderation to ensure spaces are safe and positive!" - to better reflect what moderation style on the forums actually looks like! in my observation it seems that moderation is pretty light and how/if rules are enforced is different in different situations. it seems that you have a case-by-case & casual approach to moderating, which is (in my opinion) very different from specifically fair moderation. it seems like "fair" is not quite the word you meant. or maybe what "fair" means to you is different from what it means to me! either way, a wording change to clarify what the moderation looks like on here would be helpful i think. (i am not saying this moderation style is bad, just that fair is not especially accurate as a descriptor!)
for example, as i mentioned, the "no acronyms" rule doesn't seem to be enforced at all; if it is enforced, it's enforced infrequently! that's fine and not necessarily a bad thing - probably it's so common you don't really want to get on people's asses about it all the time and it's not a big enough deal to seem "worth" reporting - but it isn't exactly "fair" to have a rule that only matters sometimes!

i think the idea of the complaint -> brainstorming rule is nice in theory, but i'm not sure how well it would work in practice! it is not very easy to determine whether any particular topic is "primarily complaints", i think. and i wonder how would that be enforced by the mods? like, if a poster says "pasta tasted better in the 90s!" and a mod responds, "what are some ways we could brainstorm to improve the taste of pasta? perhaps putting on the lion king would make it feel more 90s?" and then that poster says "nothing! pasta is bad now! i do not want to brainstorm, i only want to complain!" what is the imagined moderator follow-up or consequences?

+ i think the external projects following melonland rules thing is okay, although 1) it seems like that adds an extra amount of work for moderators (since you would have to be checking all linked projects to check for rule violations, which could involve A Lot of work depending on how thorough you want to be) and 2) might get frustrating as the rules on melonland mostly have to do with tone/attitude and that's very subjective. i don't know how well moderators could judge, for example, the kindness/respectfulness level of a zine, or whether a zine that is open for submissions but hasn't come out yet is promoting misinformation.

image archiving is a cool good project! dead images are a real menace when browsing old blogs/forums/sites! 

[Melooon]

@xixxii ooph, thanks for the clear reply! Though it sounds like you feel we've failed to enact rules, follow the projects goals or nurture good discussions Old folks on a sidewalk is very much not my aim here

I believed that creating a space that was warm and excited about web crafting was inherently a powerful act in the face of an increasingly anxious and uncertain web ~ and that that would ultimately build people up and get people enthusiastic about art and tech and making cool stuff. However if the perception is one of aimlessness and stagnation, then I think I'll have to go back to the drawing board 

I'm sure others will agree and disagree with various parts of it ~ but I appreciate the frank assessment! 

[xixxii]

@xixxii ooph, thanks for the clear reply! Though it sounds like you feel we've failed to enact rules, follow the projects goals or nurture good discussions Old folks on a sidewalk is very much not my aim here

I believed that creating a space that was warm and excited about web crafting was inherently a powerful act in the face of an increasingly anxious and uncertain web ~ and that that would ultimately build people up and get people enthusiastic about art and tech and making cool stuff. However if the perception is one of aimlessness and stagnation, then I think I'll have to go back to the drawing board 

I'm sure others will agree and disagree with various parts of it ~ but I appreciate the frank assessment! 

we-e-e-ell i don't know that i would use the term "fail" / "failure"  ; nurturing a very specific social environment in a big group of people is pretty difficult, and social environments are always changing and evolving depending on a wide variety of factors. they're difficult to control. it seems to me that "how people are interested in using the forum" and "how the forum was intended to be used" have a disconnect, which isn't an inherently good OR bad thing, it's just a thing! i don't think it means that you or the project has "failed", just that it came out Differently than intended. just like with any art, you only have so much control over what people do with your work once it's out of your own hands and put in theirs, right?

i think creating a space that's warm and excited about web crafting IS a powerful thing, just that creating that warm space means that people are happy to simply be In It. warmth is wonderful for gathering around and basking in; gathering and basking are more passive than active, but that doesn't make them less valuable or important than creating and innovating.  
i think for a lot of people, aimlessness is relaxing when so much of the web is focused on productivity in one form or another - producing content, advertising, monetizing, being "active". being in a space that is relaxed and pleasant and open to slowness is a relief. sometimes what people need to do is simply do nothing.
that's my perspective anyways!

not to discourage you from making changes if that's what you want to do, or declare any frustration or discouragement you might feel meaningless or whatever. it's very frustrating when things don't work the way you want them to or when someone interprets you/your work in an unexpected unintended way! especially if it is very different from what you had hoped! just trying to clarify i guess

as you said, i'm sure other folks have different perceptions, anyway! i haven't been around very long and i mostly just lurk. i am curious what the mood of the forum overall seems like to other people, since a mood is a very subjective thing.

[ThunderPerfectWitchcraft]

Hi.
I will reply to the general topic in more detail sometime later, but regarding your reply @xixxii : It is true that the moderation varies from case to case - this is because nearly everything that is even a bit ambivalent is discussed (is a "Bump!" post a low quality post or part of Burning-Board culture?). The result might be incoherent at times, but I'd say that we actively try to be fair.

Another factor is that we don't see many things. Reports are - in comparsion to the amount of postings and topics - rare, and I (and I'm sure this is somewhat true for the rest of the team as well) don't want to interact with the board only with the "moderator goggles" on - so many things just stay below our radar. But it is my impression that what I regard the main target - helping to keep the community a nice place - is reached.

I don't regard the board as a specific web-design or web-art board, but rather a mixture of these things and an art project itself: A place that attempts to realize the old utopian promise of the internet as a place that allows many different people to interact at eye level, meet each other, and learn from each other.

[xixxii]

It is true that the moderation varies from case to case - this is because nearly everything that is even a bit ambivalent is discussed (is a "Bump!" post a low quality post or part of Burning-Board culture?). The result might be incoherent at times, but I'd say that we actively try to be fair.

Another factor is that we don't see many things. Reports are - in comparsion to the amount of postings and topics - rare, and I (and I'm sure this is somewhat true for the rest of the team as well) don't want to interact with the board only with the "moderator goggles" on - so many things just stay below our radar. But it is my impression that what I regard the main target - helping to keep the community a nice place - is reached.

i see! to me that would mean that "thoughtful and responsive" is a much more accurate description than "fair and active", but if "fair" is the word that feels most correct to you (plural, meaning the moderation team), there's no need to change it  
my point was not that melonland moderation team is not creating a nice environment (i think it is pretty nice!), but that since both "fair" and "active" have different meanings to different people (for example, to you and me!), it would be helpful to add clarifying language to the guidelines so that people reading them know what to expect from the moderation team!

for example, since maybe i did not/am not articulating myself clearly?
since i assumed "active moderation" meant "moderators are actively moderating and will take moderator action on things, even if they are not specifically reported", i assumed that in every case that moderation action was not taken it was because the post/posts had been evaluated and deemed acceptable by the mods! so i was not particularly inclined to report things.
knowing now that "active" means (i assume - correct me if i'm wrong!) active in the sense of "online", like an "active account" vs "inactive account", ie "moderators are often online and ready to respond to reports when/if they are made" instead, that'll change how i interact with the report function a lot!
this expectation may be part of why other people don't often report things, too, although i can only speak for myself.

[larvapuppy]

Overall I'm happy with how the forum is moderated; I haven't noticed many egregiously rule-breaking posts, only minor things like the odd acronym as Xixxii mentioned.

As for the mood, I'm not quite sure... I've only been here for around a year, but it does seem slightly more stagnant around here than it was when I joined? Lately I find the majority of posts are about media discussion (favourite show, music, etc), or "I'm new" posts, which are fine but are not really what I come here to read. I also notice a lot of repetition in certain topics- everyone agrees that the web revival has made their life online healthier and they all bring up the same points; everyone is trying to use less social media; everyone is nostalgic for past times, etc.

Maybe as our user base grows there are a greater proportion of us who are nervous about getting into deeper topics. I know I'm guilty of shying away from posting anything too personal or long on here. It's tough though, how can we encourage longer discussions on web art, etc, when it's so easy to chat casually about last week's new movie?

I'm still having fun, for sure! I like to read the board like my morning paper, and contribute a few sentences when I feel like I have something pertinent or new to say.  The image archiving project is a great idea, and I like the two new rules as well. Thanks Melooon and the mini-melons (mods) for all that you do 

[Memory]

[removed by author]

[Melooon]

Ok based on the feeling above I propose these actions:

• For the remainder of the summer, we readonly the Interests Zone and reassess how people feel in September.
• We lean all forum discussions back into the web crafting, games making and arts crafting categories.
• We reboot community events that require a creative output.
• We alter the account approval process to require all new accounts to have a homepage that's actively being worked on.

[DiffydaDude]

Ok based on the feeling above I propose these actions:

• For the remainder of the summer, we readonly the Interests Zone and reassess how people feel in September.
• We lean all forum discussions back into the web crafting, games making and arts crafting categories.
• We reboot community events that require a creative output.
• We alter the account approval process to require all new accounts to have a homepage that's actively being worked on.

Uhh no thanks, not everyone does want a site for many reasons, and what will people do without the interests zone? There'd be nothing else to talk about, and what else is there to talk about web crafting? Thats a terrible decision. I do wish there was more emphasis on actually making stuff instead of just reiterating on stuff people have already done. Like theres a lack of fun flash series or special forum events or any of that other stuff other forums have done in the past. also please dont try and force creativity

[ThunderPerfectWitchcraft]

Ok based on the feeling above I propose these actions:

• For the remainder of the summer, we readonly the Interests Zone and reassess how people feel in September.
• We lean all forum discussions back into the web crafting, games making and arts crafting categories.
• We alter the account approval process to require all new accounts to have a homepage that's actively being worked on.

Wouldn't this be rather heavy, given that only a small amount of the user base answered up until now?
I think without some "fun"-topics and the quirky atmosphere, the board might lose a part of what makes it unique.
Also, is there really less creative output, or is this rather a feeling? Are newer members less creative, or how would require an active homepage help?

Some of the General board have some good threads, this is especially true for Writing (which shouldn't be excluded from digital arts!) and Technology and Archiving. If you go for this (I'm against it! :D), I believe it would be good to preserve at least these.

On the other hand, I'm all in for more creative community events.

[Melooon]

Firstly @DiffydaDude  a proposal is not a decision.

And the way I'm looking at it; your right! What's there to do if we don't have the Interests board? Have we not already said everything worth saying about Web Crafting? We've discussed File organization and guestbooks and mobile use and badges etc etc - the bases are covered; there's not much more to add 

But then, why are we still here? The thing is, I do believe we've asked and answered all the easy questions ~ we have an amazing repository here of web crafting knowledge that will be of value for decades to come. The question now is, what are the harder questions? What are the things we have not thought of yet; the ideas the old web never had, the ideas the web revival never got around too.

Maybe there is nothing left to find; but ultimately the choice is; what do we do with the time we have? Where do we put our energy?

To a certain extent I feel like this forum has stolen time from peoples websites ~ the personal passions that should be expressed on peoples own digital homes are being burnt up here. Instead of creating an amazing new design to celebrate something someone loves, they are far more likely to start a thread; get 6-8 posts and then call it a day. Bit by bit we risk undoing the very core of the web revival.

I know that there's better stuff out there to discover, and I want to find it and I want this to be the space that can help find it ~ and that's difficult and it'll go wrong sometimes ~ but I think we should take the chance on going wrong.

I do hear the concerns about what to do at first though; so I propose a 5th action:

We create a board for the everyone website, and each page can have a thread in that board; you can discuss whatever you like in there BUT for each post you must make at least one edit to that threads everyone page ^^

@ThunderPerfectWitchcraft Yes some threads and the archiving board should be pulled out of that section into the web section ^^  Re the everyone must have a homepage edit; its not about how creative people are, its about defining a focal point ~ in other words its about saying that peoples websites should be more important than the forum.

[arcus]

Even if I've taken apart of such discussions, the atmosphere would be better off if loaded NSFW orientated posts were banned. I'm talking about vague mentions of abuse, and shipping ethics and morality. They can't be properly discussed anyway, because of the rules, so discussions can't be properly elaborated on, or come close to crossing the line. It's also just uncomfortable at times. Even if it is an important thing to discuss with the internet, this just isn't a good environment for it.

As for short replies: How about adding a minimum word count to posts? It doesn't have to be high. That's what forums I was on used to do to encourage more in-depth discussion.

Ok based on the feeling above I propose these actions:
[...]

A month or two weeks would be better, it could be extended depending on how it goes. I'm not a fan of being stricter towards new users, however. Signing up gave me more motivation to work on my site (even if it's not much.)

Uhh no thanks, not everyone does want a site for many reasons, and what will people do without the interests zone? There'd be nothing else to talk about, and what else is there to talk about web crafting?

There's still plenty to talk about. Ideas on what to add to a site, different kinds of sites, and so on. If you're looking at this forum from the perspective of being a general community site (or an everything site,) then yeah, this would be bad for activity. But activity was never the goal.

[paxcallow]

if i may, as someone who literally just joined here, offer my opinion, i think a healthy "off topic" board is important for a forum- at least to me. those are how i get to know people!, outside the scope of the one thing that brought us all together, whether that be web revival enthusiasm or a television show or national novel writing month. (requiescat in pace to that forum right now though, oof.) if the idea is to be a community, and not just a resource board, i think it is important to let people get to know each other that way.

however, i am excited about the idea of creativity-based community events. the aforementioned NaNoWriMo always got me writing so much more, and talking about writing with other writers so much more and inspiring each other so much more, than would have been done without it.

i don't have much to add of course since i just got here, so for whatever it's worth to all this ^ i suppose!

[tertiaryapocalypse]

i think that it would be fine to readonly the interests for now, but i think it may also benefit from reorganising, like @paxcallow said. i think if it is placed on readonly, we should move the writing board out, since it seems to align more with the intent of the forum, at least to me!

i would LOVE to participate in creative community events, i think it would definitely inspire users and promote more discussion about creative works.

i don't think a requirement should be that new users have active homepages, but i do think it would be good to try and focus new users towards participating in some form of creativity on the web, whether it be digital art, web-crafting, or something else! i definitely think there's more to explore, and i think maybe encouraging threads about more specific corners of web-crafting and such would be a good idea, if that makes sense.

that's just my two cents, though! whatever is decided upon, i'm sure it'll be great.